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Joe_65

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 01:25 PM

Hi people.

Just one question: after reading at different publications, I have see that in the decision tree the question "Is the step specifically designed to eliminate or reduce the likely occurrence of a hazard to an acceptable level?".

Now the question: what's mean "SPECIFICALLY" in an ISO22000/HACCP decision tree? We have problems to manage it ...

In my treatment plant (drinking water from carstic source), we have a step with ozone treatment followed by an active carbon filtration and a chloration step.

Now I can perform a risk analysis about the hazard "BACTERIA":

The ozone step was implemented to reduce the organic carbon concentration and the final chloration to eliminate microbiologcal problems (regrowth) in the reservoir and distribution network. BUT, sure, the ozone is a strong desinfectant too, but the effect is to kill locally bacteria and it will not act as a distribution network protection!

Returning to my question, I have to assume that our OZONE-STEP is "SPECIFICALLY DESIGNATED TO REDUCE THE OCCURRENCE" or not, regarding the hazard "bacteria" ?

Thank you in advance for your opinions and/or suggestions ....



George @ Safefood 360°

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 03:25 PM

Hi User

The term 'specifically' as you know is designed to help you correctly identify a step as a CCP or not. The Step refers to a process step e.g ozonation or chlorination. In order for you to apply the question you need to understand one important thing - the hazard! This is why it is important that hazard analysis is as specific as possible. In your case the Chorination step is easy. It serves no other purpose than to kill bacterial. It is 'specifically' in place and designed to address this hazard (pathogenic bacteria).


In regard to ozonation you say that it is in place to reduce organic carbon compounds. The question is why? Is it because these are precursors to the formation of THM's during chlorination. If so has THM been identifed as a hazard in your HACCP study? In this cause while ozonation is in itself an effective control for bacteria, you may be using it to specifically control another hazard i.e. THM and in this case it may be CCP (but for a different hazard - chemcial)

I hope this helps



George



Joe_65

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 04:07 PM

Hi George.

Thank you for your explanation; that's all correct what you say, and Ozone is in place to reduce the organic content.


But I have headaches because chlorination is in place to kill bacteria (fecals and others), but is less efficient than ozone ! So it is questionable for me if is more important to figure as CCP the Ozonation-step to kill "bacteria" (which are hard-to-die with the NaClO alone, i.e. oocysts) or only a CCP for Chlorine.

The parameter "efficiency" can not justify a CCP-step ?
Thank you,


Joe



Charles.C

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 05:17 PM

Dear Joe,

As demonstrated in previous post, it is difficult to give a direct answer to yr query without seeing / understanding the detailed process, and the decision tree in use.

Regarding yr query, in the Codex HACCP tree which i guess you are referring, this question was originally developed to accommodate process steps which are specifically designed to control specific hazards. This also assisted the prevention of multiple CCPs for the same hazard.

Personally I avoid the Codex Tree like the Plague but I am probably a rare exception. :smile:

Rgds / Charles.C

PS - in theory, the initial hazard analysis which can highlight significant hazards is intended to promote an understanding of the microbiological, etc situation and potential of applied control measures.

PPS - Yr comments in previous post are linked to the validation step which is (theoretically) required to be done prior to categorisation of CCP/OPRP control measures.


Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


George @ Safefood 360°

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 07:54 PM

Hi George.

Thank you for your explanation; that's all correct what you say, and Ozone is in place to reduce the organic content.


But I have headaches because chlorination is in place to kill bacteria (fecals and others), but is less efficient than ozone ! So it is questionable for me if is more important to figure as CCP the Ozonation-step to kill "bacteria" (which are hard-to-die with the NaClO alone, i.e. oocysts) or only a CCP for Chlorine.

The parameter "efficiency" can not justify a CCP-step ?
Thank you,


Joe


Hi Joe

I have to agree with Charles about the CODEX decision tree. For me it should consigned to the scrap heap of history and your post is simply more validation for me. Nonetheless, it is what we have to use and like all good subservient food safety specialists we need to make it work in some way.

First of all 'chorination is less efficient than ozone'. Have you validated this claim? If so why not turn off the chorine pump and save a lot of money? HACCP validation serves a purpose including the avoidance of operating a CCP which is not required. I am sure there is a reason other than it has always been that way... In some regards your issue may not be the CCP decision tree but the principle of validation, the need to review your HACCP plan and so on.

The history of how this process design came into existence would be helpful. I assume the Chorination step was there first and then someone decided to address the issue of THM which led to the ozonation step. Now you are looking at it in a more comprehensive way and in the context of pathogenic bacteria.

Here is an other interesting point - if you were applying the Codex Decision Tree to the Ozone step and somehow managed to get to Question 4 ' Will a subsequent step eliminate or reduce the hazard to an acceptable level?' you may answer this as YES and therefore it is Not a CCP. Problem solved. A later step (Chorination) is designed to address this. But then you might say to yourself is Ozonation specifically designed to address the pathogenic hazard? You may well say Yes - CCP. It can go a number of ways. (If CODEX had to actually use this decision tree maybe we would have had an improvement long ago :smile: )

I think you need to ask yourself the following question? Do we need chorination to control the hazard?

If you do then you do not need ozonation as a CCP. Ozonation was not put in place for this purpose or lets say it another way the process step was not specifically designed to control this hazard (as per the CCP decision tree logic).It was designed (in your context) to control another hazard - THM. Keep it simple and true to the Decision Tree.


Now remember, you put in place the ozone stage to control THM. If you remove the chorination step then you will remove this issue of THM formation and therefore do not need the ozone step, at least for this purpose or design. You will need one or the other for pathogens. You may decided based on validation that you do not need the chorination step. This will give you one CCP, one less expensive control step and reduce the risk of THM formation dramatically. On the face of it this looks like the sensible option for your HACCP team to review, validate and make a decision on.

This is only general advice based on very limited information but I hope it helps you in your deliberations.

George


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Joe_65

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 09:16 AM

Hi Joe

I have to agree with Charles about the CODEX decision tree. For me it should consigned to the scrap heap of history and your post is simply more validation for me. Nonetheless, it is what we have to use and like all good subservient food safety specialists we need to make it work in some way.

First of all 'chorination is less efficient than ozone'. Have you validated this claim? If so why not turn off the chorine pump and save a lot of money? HACCP validation serves a purpose including the avoidance of operating a CCP which is not required. I am sure there is a reason other than it has always been that way... In some regards your issue may not be the CCP decision tree but the principle of validation, the need to review your HACCP plan and so on.

The history of how this process design came into existence would be helpful. I assume the Chorination step was there first and then someone decided to address the issue of THM which led to the ozonation step. Now you are looking at it in a more comprehensive way and in the context of pathogenic bacteria.

Here is an other interesting point - if you were applying the Codex Decision Tree to the Ozone step and somehow managed to get to Question 4 ' Will a subsequent step eliminate or reduce the hazard to an acceptable level?' you may answer this as YES and therefore it is Not a CCP. Problem solved. A later step (Chorination) is designed to address this. But then you might say to yourself is Ozonation specifically designed to address the pathogenic hazard? You may well say Yes - CCP. It can go a number of ways. (If CODEX had to actually use this decision tree maybe we would have had an improvement long ago :smile: )

I think you need to ask yourself the following question? Do we need chorination to control the hazard?

If you do then you do not need ozonation as a CCP. Ozonation was not put in place for this purpose or lets say it another way the process step was not specifically designed to control this hazard (as per the CCP decision tree logic).It was designed (in your context) to control another hazard - THM. Keep it simple and true to the Decision Tree.


Now remember, you put in place the ozone stage to control THM. If you remove the chorination step then you will remove this issue of THM formation and therefore do not need the ozone step, at least for this purpose or design. You will need one or the other for pathogens. You may decided based on validation that you do not need the chorination step. This will give you one CCP, one less expensive control step and reduce the risk of THM formation dramatically. On the face of it this looks like the sensible option for your HACCP team to review, validate and make a decision on.

This is only general advice based on very limited information but I hope it helps you in your deliberations.

George




Hi George,
thank you for your comments.
You have been a great help for me to understand my question.


Joe




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