9 replies to this topic

[hygienic]

Dear All;



I am just asking from food safety point with regards frozen chicken , what is the risky point if the said product defrosted in proper way and cutt it as peices then again refreezing it ? is there any chance for pathoginic bacteria to grow ? or from the quality point it is not good? please share your experience here.



Regards
Hygienic

[Charles.C]

Dear All;



I am just asking from food safety point with regards frozen chicken , what is the risky point if the said product defrosted in proper way and cutt it as peices then again refreezing it ? is there any chance for pathoginic bacteria to grow ? or from the quality point it is not good? please share your experience here.

Regards
Hygienic

Dear Hygienic,

A simple question but not necessarily a .....

Can you share to us your "proper way" ?.

The usual answer depends on things like -

1. Good starting material, eg ideally free of Salmonella and similar undesirables. But quite likely will not match this ideal.

2. How you propose to defrost it, ie what is your "proper way"? FDA from memory recommends doing it in yr refrigerator. Not so easy if you have 1 ton.

3. The time required and actual temperature control expected while defrosting in yr "proper way".

4. Yr hygiene control during cutting.

5. The time required and temperature control expected for yr cutting. Ideally maybe product <5degC but probably won't be so then it depends on the actual time and temperature.

6. how much delay after cutting and before re-freeze, and the hygiene / temperature control in this period.

7. how long to refreeze, or at least how long to get to, say, around zero degC.

Rgds / Charles.C

[hygienic]

1363387974[/url]' post='59763']
Dear Hygienic,

A simple question but not necessarily a .....

Can you share to us your "proper way" ?.

The usual answer depends on things like -

1. Good starting material, eg ideally free of Salmonella and similar undesirables. But quite likely will not match this ideal.

2. How you propose to defrost it, ie what is your "proper way"? FDA from memory recommends doing it in yr refrigerator. Not so easy if you have 1 ton.

3. The time required and actual temperature control expected while defrosting in yr "proper way".

4. Yr hygiene control during cutting.

5. The time required and temperature control expected for yr cutting. Ideally maybe product <5degC but probably won't be so then it depends on the actual time and temperature.

6. how much delay after cutting and before re-freeze, and the hygiene / temperature control in this period.

7. how long to refreeze, or at least how long to get to, say, around zero degC.

Rgds / Charles.C

Dear charles ,We are doing the defrosting inside a thawing chiller with max temp 7 c and will takes around two days to get it thawed . Then transferring to the butchury room with room controlled temperature around 15 c for cutting purpose this step will take two hour to cut 100 kg then transferring to the freezer again . This is every thing in related to the refreez the raw chicken
Regards

[Charles.C]

Dear hygienic,

It is the product temperature and related cumulative time for a given specific unit, eg 1kg, which are most important regarding yr query (ie the handling/storage delay after cutting / efficiency of re-freezing is also relevant - the usual check is to "tag" a representative test portion and monitor its (maximum) temperature/time through the whole process as far as possible).

However the basic answer to yr question is that Yes, pathogenic bacteria can grow at the temperatures you mention. How much they might grow would require some more questioning and still be somewhat guesswork.

------------------------
(added later) -

This US attachment was developed for seafood and indicates maximum times for safe handling of product as a function of its internal temperature for various bacterial pathogens (see table A2). This suggests a maximum cumulative exposure of 6hrs for Salmonella species in range 11-21 degC. I don’t know if a similar table exists for “meat” products.
 Fishery Hazards Guide 2011 App04.pdf   158.1KB   24 downloads
-----------------------
I enclose one attachment just to illustrate the general possibilities for some well-known species although chicken often has problems from a further pathogen C.jejuni which is not mentioned.

 Snyder, critical pathogen temperatures.pdf   193.9KB   46 downloads

There is another (US oriented) thread here similar to yours which mentions some significantly lower meat (probably poultry) processing temperatures. The limitations may also depend on local rules / employees. My experience with seafood is that the product temperatures are targetted to be maintained (with ice) at a maximum substantially below yr numbers. Of course if a given unit of the product is only handled for, say, 5 minutes before re-freezing, the risks are different.

--------------------------
(added later) - link is here -
http://www.ifsqn.com...dpost__p__57407
--------------------------

Rgds / Charles.C

Edited by Charles.C, 17 March 2013 - 12:39 AM.
added second attachment and link

[KTD]

Dear Hygienic -

You may find these 2 articles useful. They do not apply directly to your process, but do provide some pathogen growth guidance during thawing. Also, you can conduct some pathogen growth modeling using the Pathogen Modeling Program available at the USDA ARS website.

http://www.ars.usda.....htm?docid=6784

 Valid of Path Growth at Low Temps - Buege.pdf   2.4MB   36 downloads
 Thawing at Ambient Temp.pdf   73.99KB   43 downloads

[Charles.C]

Dear hygienic,

The only regulatory data on poultry i have seen is for USDA but apparently last updated 2001. This allows a maximum product temperature of 13degC under its defined process situation, see attachment ab3 below (section 381.66).

 ab3 - 9 CFR 381 _ POULTRY PRODUCTS INSPECTION REGULATIONS 9 CFR 381 _ (ANIMALS AND ANIMAL PRODUCTS 9 CFR ).pdf   1.12MB   20 downloads

As I understand it, KTD’s second attachment (2003) suggests that for poultry (Salmonella, E.coli O157), if starting work from a chilled temperature of 5degC, could either –
(a) ensure a maximum product temperature of 10degC with a regain of 5degC in maximum total elapsed time of 4 hrs.
or
(b) ensure a maximum product temperature of 20degC with a regain of 5degC in maximum total elapsed time of 2 hrs.
(a later 2007 follow-up to above data is attached below, see ab2)

 ab2 - beef, pork,poultry pathogen growth, 2007 Ingham.pdf   121.4KB   22 downloads

Yr cutting situation looks to me as maybe somewhere in the middle of above acceptable (a,b) values but also depending on how quick you refreeze to reduce the product temperature. The 2day initial step also looks necessary to validate.

A further 2007 document (ab1) below suggests 10degC room temperature is a typical maximum processing level for beef (E.coli O157) but is also associated with an acceptable longer process time (8hours) than stated in option (a) above.

 ab1 - EDIS ca.2007, beef, growth E.coli O157 at 50degF, 10degC.pdf   69.6KB   14 downloads

@ KTD Thks for your useful documents. These prompted me to have another quick look. This is clearly a huge area of microbiological interest as I suppose might be expected. I have to say that i was impressed (alarmed?) at the stated accuracies of the bacterial count data in some of these reports but seeing is believing.

The 2007, ab1, document implies that beef processors seldom work above room temperatures of 10degC (50degF). I think from memory this is similar to MIG manual's beef guidelines for UK. No idea of poultry regs in UK.

I had a look at yr link on do-it-yourself modelling and retreated rapidly.

Rgds / Charles.C

[hygienic]

Dear hygienic,

The only regulatory data on poultry i have seen is for USDA but apparently last updated 2001. This allows a maximum product temperature of 13degC under its defined process situation, see attachment ab3 below (section 381.66).

 ab3 - 9 CFR 381 _ POULTRY PRODUCTS INSPECTION REGULATIONS 9 CFR 381 _ (ANIMALS AND ANIMAL PRODUCTS 9 CFR ).pdf   1.12MB   20 downloads

As I understand it, KTD’s second attachment (2003) suggests that for poultry (Salmonella, E.coli O157), if starting work from a chilled temperature of 5degC, could either –
(a) ensure a maximum product temperature of 10degC with a regain of 5degC in maximum total elapsed time of 4 hrs.
or
(b) ensure a maximum product temperature of 20degC with a regain of 5degC in maximum total elapsed time of 2 hrs.
(a later 2007 follow-up to above data is attached below, see ab2)

 ab2 - beef, pork,poultry pathogen growth, 2007 Ingham.pdf   121.4KB   22 downloads

Yr cutting situation looks to me as maybe somewhere in the middle of above acceptable (a,b) values but also depending on how quick you refreeze to reduce the product temperature. The 2day initial step also looks necessary to validate.

A further 2007 document (ab1) below suggests 10degC room temperature is a typical maximum processing level for beef (E.coli O157) but is also associated with an acceptable longer process time (8hours) than stated in option (a) above.

 ab1 - EDIS ca.2007, beef, growth E.coli O157 at 50degF, 10degC.pdf   69.6KB   14 downloads

@ KTD Thks for your useful documents. These prompted me to have another quick look. This is clearly a huge area of microbiological interest as I suppose might be expected. I have to say that i was impressed (alarmed?) at the stated accuracies of the bacterial count data in some of these reports but seeing is believing.

The 2007, ab1, document implies that beef processors seldom work above room temperatures of 10degC (50degF). I think from memory this is similar to MIG manual's beef guidelines for UK. No idea of poultry regs in UK.

I had a look at yr link on do-it-yourself modelling and retreated rapidly.

Rgds / Charles.C

Dear Charles;


Thanks alot for your documents realy helpfull. any way the product is under control , sampeles regularly are collected for testing purpose up to know nothing has been detected , such as salmonella or E.coli.



Regards

[Charles.C]

Dear Charles;

Thanks alot for your documents realy helpfull. any way the product is under control , sampeles regularly are collected for testing purpose up to know nothing has been detected , such as salmonella or E.coli.

Regards

Dear hygienic,

The traditional indicators of process hygiene control are items like plate count, coliform, E.coli. You could attempt to monitor levels of Salmonella but this would probably cause laboratory overload unless just a small-scale project. It will not be very surprising if you detect Salmonella in raw poultry. This will likely remain in the finished product unless you have a “removal” stage, eg like cooking.

The haccp approach would be to first get some detailed data on product temperature / time at the various steps. This will give you an initial idea of situation.

The numerical level / changes in indicators mentioned above in raw material / subsequent stages will give some idea of any major variations in microbiological hygiene through the process chain.

Some locations (eg US) will probably be equally worried about L.monocytogenes (sanitation) and E.coli O157 (contamination).

Other input / opinions welcome of course.

Rgds / Charles.C

[SBNavarro]

Hi All!

How about considering the quality? Drip? We were taught that upon thawing, there's loss in the nutritional content as well as changes in the texture of the meat. As far as I can remember, upon freezing, water inside the cells solidify (except for bound water) and forms a network. During the thawing process, some of the water-soluble nutrients when the ice melts are also lost.

(that's what I can remember from my college professors, haha, )

[hygienic]

Hi All!

How about considering the quality? Drip? We were taught that upon thawing, there's loss in the nutritional content as well as changes in the texture of the meat. As far as I can remember, upon freezing, water inside the cells solidify (except for bound water) and forms a network. During the thawing process, some of the water-soluble nutrients when the ice melts are also lost.

(that's what I can remember from my college professors, haha, )

Hi;

This is true and when there is refreezing , the Ice will be formed inside the meat texturesand tear it, then when it is formed will not be removed after cooking .