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KBMB

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 02:28 PM

Hello all,

 

 

We have been informed that our audit this year will be a shadow audit.

Another auditor will be accompanying our auditor as she is new and it is a requirement that new SQF auditors undergo a shadow audit and witness audit with one of the current auditors before they can begin with them alone.

Can anyone share any insight or what I can expect?

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thank you.

 

B

 

 

 



Mr. Incognito

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Posted 26 November 2014 - 02:36 PM

I've seen some horror stories about this on here.  Something you need to do is have a company rep on the walk around for each auditor.  Someone said that the "shadow" auditor walked off and then they got hit with an unescorted person on the premises.  Make sure someone is leading the group who should be the person who will stay with the lead auditor and have someone at the end of the group watching the "shadow" auditor.  If that person wanders off make sure that company rep is on them like metal on a pot!

 

They might not try to pull anything but you never know.


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RG3

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 07:52 PM

I've had this situation happen to me. Make sure to have them both fill out your confidentiality agreement, visitor log, as any other visitor would. Try to come to an agreement that the person is a shadow and nothing more. I don't like when shadows talk and chirp in on their opinions. Keep all your visitors together. I've never seen a shadow wonder off, that would be scary (I would assume it would look something like at the end of that movie Ghost). If they talk or walk on their own talk to the lead auditor and say something to the effect "I thought we had an agreement". New auditors without any experience in factory are the worst since they dwell on everything and expect everything to be like they've read in their fairy tale books. Good luck. 



it_rains_inside

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 08:12 PM

I have a couple shadow audits under my belt - and let me tell you what - depending on the nature of the shadow, I will never do it again if I can help it. (You do have the right for refusal - typically)

 

RG3 is right - newbies feel like they have to make up for something and are usually distracting from the audit, chirping in here and there, or even worse, are looking harder into things that the auditor alone normally would overlook. Its a second set of eyes, eyes that are eager to impress, fresh out of the books, typically not what you want while you are already stressed and defending your system. - If you go for it - I would take RG3's advice and write up some kind of agreement (not that it will keep  the auditor and shadow from chatting off-site or at breaks) 

 

Mr. I is also right. A second auditor means a second escort. You'd think having the second escort along on a plant tour would be beneficial to keep them from wandering, but IMO what ends up happening is the escort and shadow get to gabbing, which is again - distracting to the auditor/ auditee.

 

If I were you, I would refuse. Just my $0.02


Edited by it_rains_inside, 02 December 2014 - 08:13 PM.

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Snookie

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Posted 03 December 2014 - 04:59 PM

I agree with a lot of what has been said here.  When I had a shadow audit they were always way harder than they needed to be. 


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Tony-C

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Posted 04 December 2014 - 06:38 PM

Firstly isn't a 'shadow' auditor meant to watch/observe the main auditor?

 

If you are clued up on audits and have two auditors present then you will 'man mark' the auditors and so have a minimum of two competent people out with them when they look round the facility.

 

The better retail auditors tend to know if they are being managed so my advice would be to allow them to lead when they want to.

 

Regards,

 

Tony



Snookie

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Posted 05 December 2014 - 11:23 PM

Firstly isn't a 'shadow' auditor meant to watch/observe the main auditor?

 

That is the main point.....but it has always seemed to be a harder audit when there are more than one.  On my last shadow audit we had several people to manage the auditors--it was a nightmare.  


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Snookie

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Posted 05 December 2014 - 11:24 PM

BKIM....let us know how it comes out.  


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Tony-C

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 06:27 AM

New auditors without any experience in factory are the worst since they dwell on everything and expect everything to be like they've read in their fairy tale books. Good luck. 

 

I can understand your comment for organizations that tend to employ auditors fresh from a food technology degree or equivalent.

 

For SQF Auditors there is clear criteria laid out in Criteria for SQF Auditors
The applicant shall have at least five (5) years full-time work experience in a food related technical, professional or supervisory position involving accountability and the exercise of judgment.

 

I would take RG3's advice and write up some kind of agreement (not that it will keep  the auditor and shadow from chatting off-site or at breaks) 

 

If you have concerns then I would seek clarification of what the 'shadow auditor' is doing from the certification body before the audit rather waiting until the day of the audit.

 

That is the main point.....but it has always seemed to be a harder audit when there are more than one.  On my last shadow audit we had several people to manage the auditors--it was a nightmare.  

 

I can understand how that can work out, especially if you have concerns over the systems in place, as the auditor is more likely to be very thorough as they are in effect training the 'shadow auditor'.

 

On the plus side as an organization you want your systems to be verified by a thorough and competent auditor. A good audit result will give confidence in the systems in place. Although quite stressful at the time, both myself and the organization gained a lot more from this type of audit.

 

Regards,

 

Tony



Charles.C

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 11:35 AM

Hi Tony,

 

Interesting Link, thks. I noticed on the opening page -

 

HACCP Training        means training that meets the CODEX guidelines or NACMCF HACCP principles

 

Closed the file.

 

Rgds / Charles


Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


Snookie

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 06:18 PM

That is the main point.....but it has always seemed to be a harder audit when there are more than one.  On my last shadow audit we had several people to manage the auditors--it was a nightmare.  

 

 

I can understand how that can work out, especially if you have concerns over the systems in place, as the auditor is more likely to be very thorough as they are in effect training the 'shadow auditor'.

 

On the plus side as an organization you want your systems to be verified by a thorough and competent auditor. A good audit result will give confidence in the systems in place. Although quite stressful at the time, both myself and the organization gained a lot more from this type of audit.

 

Regards,

 

Tony

 

While I see your point, this wasn't the issue.....it was more like RG3 said,

 

 New auditors without any experience in factory are the worst since they dwell on everything and expect everything to be like they've read in their fairy tale books. Good luck. 

 

 While they should have the experience to be past this....it doesn't mean they are. 


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Tony-C

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 07:05 PM

While I see your point, this wasn't the issue.....it was more like RG3 said,

 

 

 While they should have the experience to be past this....it doesn't mean they are. 

 

 

For SQF Auditors there is clear criteria laid out in Criteria for SQF Auditors
The applicant shall have at least five (5) years full-time work experience in a food related technical, professional or supervisory position involving accountability and the exercise of judgment.

 

Regards,

 

Tony

 

I know how difficult it is to deal with a 'new' auditor and after 5 years someone is not a 'new' auditor.

 

Personally I tend to like posts that provide evidence to substantiate an opinion, take a look at posts by Charles for example.

 

It would be good if you could provide some evidence to support your post.

 

Regards,

 

Tony



Snookie

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 09:13 PM

Personally I tend to like posts that provide evidence to substantiate an opinion, take a look at posts by Charles for example.

 

It would be good if you could provide some evidence to support your post.

 

Regards,

 

Tony

 

In this instance we are giving opinions about experience.  I have seen many posts where experience has been expressed without evidence and if that is not your preference, so be it.  On the issue of shadow audits we disagree, I do not have a problem with that.  There will be many times when each may not agree with another.  Leave it at that. 


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fgjuadi

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 10:31 PM

I've never had a shadow audit, but like a dumbass, I'd be the first to ask for one - (I mean, not if my job depended on getting a certification THAT AUDIT)

 

1) I want to see how they teach auditors, what auditors look for, what they're paying attention to, etc

 

2) They gotta learn.  I'd really like to teach that shadow auditor what an awesome challenge / response / fight back is, and have them learn when to back down.  This is why you show Mickey D's employees where the "cheese" button is.  So that next time you go get a QP w/ Cheese, you don't have to show them.  Plus, they'll remember you, so when they're auditing you 5 years from now, you can say "Oh, we both learned that thing during our shadow audit, good times bro"

 

3) More eyes = Better audit coverage (could go both ways, more likely to fail, but you're paying for it, so get your $ worth)

 

4) More people - higher chance my charming personality and corny "I'm being audited now" stress jokes will be effective (only works on 3.4% of general population)  (goes both ways - more chance my jokes will grate them)

 

5) Maybe I can wrangle some sweet, free consulting out of my shadow.  Sure, the auditor giving you advice would be a conflict of interest, but this guy?  This guy is just standing there.  Not grading a thing.


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it_rains_inside

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 01:27 PM

 

I've never had a shadow audit, but like a dumbass, I'd be the first to ask for one - (I mean, not if my job depended on getting a certification THAT AUDIT)

 

1) I want to see how they teach auditors, what auditors look for, what they're paying attention to, etc

 

2) They gotta learn.  I'd really like to teach that shadow auditor what an awesome challenge / response / fight back is, and have them learn when to back down.  This is why you show Mickey D's employees where the "cheese" button is.  So that next time you go get a QP w/ Cheese, you don't have to show them.  Plus, they'll remember you, so when they're auditing you 5 years from now, you can say "Oh, we both learned that thing during our shadow audit, good times bro"

 

3) More eyes = Better audit coverage (could go both ways, more likely to fail, but you're paying for it, so get your $ worth)

 

4) More people - higher chance my charming personality and corny "I'm being audited now" stress jokes will be effective (only works on 3.4% of general population)  (goes both ways - more chance my jokes will grate them)

 

5) Maybe I can wrangle some sweet, free consulting out of my shadow.  Sure, the auditor giving you advice would be a conflict of interest, but this guy?  This guy is just standing there.  Not grading a thing.

 

MM - this girl sure knows how to say it. For sure, those are all the "perks" of a shadow audit. (I especially #4,  :giggle: ) 

 

And to Tony / Snookie's points, I know that different schemes have different expectations of the auditors and their capabilities before going into the field, but I have to agree with Snookie here, just because they are supposed to have certain qualifications/ experience (and they might) doesnt mean they always know what to do with that experience. Experience can mean different things to different people, and can show itself in a number of different ways. I think as far as "evidence" to support Snookie's point of view, the other comments on this thread are doing the job. There haven't been too many people to come on here and comment how well their shadow audit went, usually they are unnecessarily harder, or more in depth than they would have been without the shadow. I dont' think she is debating on the experience level of the shadow - I think we are talking more or less about the way that the auditor behaves with a shadow. A shadow should be just that, an observer....

It just seems that a  majority of the time, auditors who are being observed feel like they have to impress the shadow, show off their stuff, show them how to battle, and how to win. (After all, that is what they are there to do - prove how well they know and understand the standard, and to challenge the auditee to see if they can step up to that understanding) I totally not only understand with what they are doing, but agree with it. Like MM was saying in #2 - the shadow is there to learn, so the auditor is going to show them how to play!! But if you have a solid FSMS, the auditor has got to dig in somewhere! This is where you will see folks getting sited for things that normally would be overlooked, and typically why people are so hesitant about having a shadow during the audit. 


"Peace is the result of retraining your mind to process life as it is, rather than as you think it should be"

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Charles.C

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 11:32 PM

Dear All,

 

(Slightly OT)

 

I suggest that it's the Shadow auditors with fangs one has to watch out for. Especially if the audit runs into overtime.

 

@Magenta_m - "only works on 3.4% of general population".

I presume this intriguing statistic based on a USA-only sampling. Might have a better chance in Haiti (definitely no offence intended).

 

This thread also made me think about surgeons. After all, everyone has to start somewhere.

 

Rgds / Charles.C


Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


fgjuadi

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Posted 10 December 2014 - 02:33 AM

Dear All,

 

(Slightly OT)


 

This thread also made me think about surgeons. After all, everyone has to start somewhere.

 

Rgds / Charles.C

:off_topic: Dude, Dental Schools.   Talk about the most terrifying experience of your life.  No insurance, I always go to beauty schools to get my hair did, so I break my tooth on my boyfriend's head, and I'm holding this chunk of tooth in my hand looking at a negative bank account, which means I can't even afford free dental care....So I swallow my pride and a bunch of tooth blood and camp out at the dental school...

 

Bless their hearts, those students.  It smelled...pretty bad....outside.  The clientele were mostly families, it was very clean.  But still super scary.  And cheap!    

 

I'd do it again.


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