6 replies to this topic

[mgourley]

Surfaces:

Stainless steel mixers, hoppers, transfer containers, etc.

 

Process:

Cookies, bread, buns, rolls.

 

Situation:

Removal of biofilm/alkali buildup on above surfaces.

 

Background:

Generally, on these surfaces I have used 200 grain vinegar and significant manual agitation to remove biofilms and/or alkali buildup. I have in the past used various other acid chemicals to accomplish the same thing.

 

Question for the chemists:

Acedic acid is, in essence, high test vinegar, correct?

Diluted acedic acid is vinegar?

Is there any cost/benefit to using acedic acid and diluting it vs. using processed 200 grain vinegar and more elbow grease?

 

TIA.

Marshall

[Charles.C]

Question for the chemists:

1. Acedic acid is, in essence, high test vinegar, correct?

2. Diluted acedic acid is vinegar?

3. Is there any cost/benefit to using acedic acid and diluting it vs. using processed 200 grain vinegar and more elbow grease?

 

Dear mgourley,

 

1. Typically (eg chemical analysts) yes but not exactly definitively.  Acetic acid is CH₃COOH. There are many, many, types of "vinegar".

http://en.wikipedia....negar#Distilled

 

2. Typically yes, but typically commercially within limits

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Acetic_acid

(see sec. acetic acid)

 

3. Sadly no idea, and no idea what 200 grain means either. No doubt the answer to 2nd is well-known to social sippers.

 

Rgds / Charles.C

 

PS - for trivia buffs -

The name acetic acid derives from acetum, the Latin word for vinegar

(Wiki)

[mgourley]

Charles,

200 grain vinegar is "regular" vinegar. That which you might buy in a jug at the local shop.

 

Wives tales and general sanitation always states vinegar is a general purpose cleaner. The fact that it is acidic, removes biofilm and is "food grade" is just a plus.

 

Marshall

[SUSHIL]

Hello mgourley,,

Acetic  acid or glacial  acetic  acid is 99%-100% acetic acid(prepared from oxidation of  ethanol).Vinegars prepared  from glacial acetic acid with 5-6% acetic acid are called as synthetic vinegars.Acetic acid is Natural preservative  normally used  in pickles,sauces,and many foods and normally used in many chinese foods.

It is also used as final rinsing of many food preparation machines at 1-2% level after thorough cleaning with soap,sanitizer ,NaoH and normal water of food preparation machines.

synthetic vinegar prepared from glacial acetic acid in-house will be cheaper than buying synthetic vinegar.

200 grain  vinegar is 20% vinegar.

Some distilled vinegars are prepared from acetous fermentation of ethanol and distilled and diluted to specified  strength (say 5,10,20% etc) and ethanol being  obtained from fermentation  of corn  or other sugary substances like molasses.

[Charles.C]

Dear mgourley,

 

As per previous post / my checking, yr vinegar is pretty potent, not designed for Fish and Chips.!

 

Yr query was -

 

Is there any cost/benefit to using acedic acid and diluting it vs. using processed 200 grain vinegar and more elbow grease?

 

 

So the query is cost/benefit of (conc. [glacial] acetic acid + water + inconvenience) vs cost (20% vinegar)

(conc.acetic can be nasty to handle IMEX but I would imagine 20% is not too user-friendly either !)

 

For equal concentrations, the benefit will presumably be identical, ie elbow grease the same (and in fact desirable according to comment below).

 

Technically a few other items are related to a meaningful evaluation, eg –

 

(1) Criteria for acceptability, eg final cleanliness / sanitary (micro) status

(2) Optimum concentration of acetic acid to achieve (1)

 

I didn’t find any detailed analysis of performance vs concentration from a quick net look. perhaps you have validated this already ?

 

Different sources seem to have varying opinions on uses of acetic acid. Some focus mainly  as cleaners, others as sanitizers, eg see later below (not specifically for bakeries). No direct experience myself.

 

CDC (2008) has a low opinion of vinegar’s micro.activity (maybe a question of conc. also) –

 

Some environmental groups advocate "environmentally safe" products as alternatives to commercial germicides in the home-care setting. These alternatives (e.g., ammonia, baking soda, vinegar, Borax, liquid detergent) are not registered with EPA and should not be used for disinfecting because they are ineffective against S. aureus. Borax, baking soda, and detergents also are ineffective against Salmonella Typhi and E.coli; however, undiluted vinegar and ammonia are effective against S. Typhi and E.coli 53, 332, 333.

 

(my underline)

 

Used in Cleaning

 

Acids: Good for cleaning alkali soils and removing minerals, especially calcium and magnesium, can condition water. There are two types:

•   Inorganic  —  strong  and  corrosive,  not  recommended  for  food plant use. Examples are phosphoric acid, hydrochloric acid, and sulfuric and nitric acids.

•   Organic — most useful in food plants as they are not as corrosive. Examples are acetic acid, tartaric acid, and lactic acid.

 

Once the chemical has been applied to the surface, it will require contact time to penetrate and break up soil, but not so long that it begins to dry. Use mechanical  action  as  needed  to  remove  soil  and  prevent  buildup  that  can contribute to biofilm formation. As a rule, scrub contact surfaces on a daily basis and indirect surfaces such as frames at least once a week]. Unfortunately, some chemicals are represented as “no-scrub” and touted as being effective  without  mechanical  action.  Experience  and  scientific  data  have shown that scrubbing is required to prevent the formation of biofilms. Scrubbing, however, should not be so intense as to cause scratches or gouges in the surface being cleaned as these then become harborage niches for bacteria and biofilms may begin to form. In this instance, softer scrub pads or soft bristled brushes may be a better alternative to “green pads”

 

Used in Sanitising

 

Acid Sanitizers

Acid  sanitizers can combine  the  rinsing and  sanitizing  steps.  Organic  acids such as acetic,  peroxyacetic,  lactic, propionic,  and  formic  acids  are  the  most  common  acid sanitizers. The acid neutralizes residues of alkaline cleaning compounds,  prevents alkaline  deposits  from  forming,  and  sanitizes.  These  compounds  work  very well  on stainless-steel surfaces  or where they may be in contact for a long time. Automated cleaning  systems  in  food  plants often  combine sanitizing with the final rinse.  This has  made  acid sanitizers  popular. Acid sanitizers  are sensitive  to  pH changes, but  hard water reduces their  effectiveness  less than iodine-based  sanitizers.

Heavy  foam  used  to  make  it  difficult  to  drain  acid  sanitizers  from  equipment,  but nonfoaming acid sanitizers are now available. Acids are not  as efficient  as irradiation, and  at high  concentrations  they can slightly  affect  the  color  and  odor  of foods  such as meat. Also, acetic acid does not  seem to destroy Salmonella bacteria.

Peroxyacetic  acid  is  a rapid  sanitizer  that  kills  a wide  variety of microbes  and  is used in food processing plants.  It is less corrosive than iodine and chlorine sanitizers and  causes less pitting of equipment  surfaces.

 

You might find the attachment in this post also of some interest although somewhat different orientation -

 

http://www.ifsqn.com...5643#entry75643

 

Rgds / Charles.C

 

PS - if you have a lab., high grade glacial acetic will probably be cheap as previous post but it obviously depends on cost of the shelf 20% and yr staff liking of acetic fumes.

 

PPS - I noticed that a 10min soak in the  20% will also cure Athlete's Foot. I wouldn't like to validate that one.

[mgourley]

Charles,

 

Thank you for all of that.

 

Marshall

[MWidra]

 

So the query is cost/benefit of (conc. [glacial] acetic acid + water + inconvenience) vs cost (20% vinegar)

(conc.acetic can be nasty to handle IMEX but I would imagine 20% is not too user-friendly either !)

 

Vinegar is 0.83 M concentration.  Glacial acetic acid is 17 M.  So you would need to dilute the glacial acetic acid about 1/20 to get it to vinegar strength.  Vinegar is actually not very caustic due to the way that it incompletely ionizes.  Vinegar has a pH of about 2.5, which is a lot better than a non-organic acid at the same concentration, which would have a pH of about 1.  Glacial acetic acid has a caustic vapor so it would need to be diluted in a chemical fume hood (not the same as the hoods used for cultures, which are biological safety cabinets.)  Breathing in the vapors can eat your airways.  That's an expense that you would not have if you used vinegar, because the lower concentration can be used outside a hood.  If you have the chemical fume hoods, then they must be certified each year.  And you will need to provide PPE for the workers to handle it and also eye washes and a shower close by.  Acetic acid is viscous, so it is dangerous to get on your skin at glacial strength and hard to rinse off. My advice, if you want to buy chemical acetic acid, just buy it at a lower concentration, already diluted.

 

"Peroxyacetic  acid  is  a rapid  sanitizer  that  kills  a wide  variety of microbes  and  is used in food processing plants.  It is less corrosive than iodine and chlorine sanitizers and  causes less pitting of equipment  surfaces."

 

PLEASE do not use this chemical.  Any of the peroxy organic acids are flammable, explosive at higher concentrations, and extremely corrosive, more than the parent acid.  Leave those to the organic chemists, who would know the risks that they take.

 

I was involved in an explosion of an old bottle of formic acid which probably had formed peroxyformic acid.  I missed losing an eye to flying glass by mere centimeters, and had 1st, 2nd and 3rd degree burns to 10% of my body.  Acetic acid is not prone to spontaneously forming those compounds, but it is equally dangerous if someone puts it into in that form.

 

I spent over 40 years working in a science lab.  Where acids are concerned, it's better to work with the less harmful strengths unless you have the experience and the equipment.

 

Sorry for the alarmist statements, but burns are something that I would not wish on my worst enemy, they are that painful.  The safety officer in me had to chime in.

 

Also, I apologize for not knowing how to multiquote from a single post, or how to break it up in the reply.

 

Martha

Edited by MWidra, 19 January 2015 - 09:03 PM.