16 replies to this topic

[hygienic]

Dear All

 

Just to make it clear for me and to give a proper distinguish  between HRF and LRF.

Are you agree with this or no ?

 

Any food that should be kept in the refrigerator- chilling condition (below 5 degree)  is considered as a high risk food .

 

Thanks

Hygienic

[Charles.C]

Dear All

 

Just to make it clear for me and to give a proper distinguish  between HRF and LRF.

Are you agree with this or no ?

 

Any food that should be kept in the refrigerator- chilling condition (below 5 degree)  is considered as a high risk food .

 

Thanks

Hygienic

 

Hi hygienic,

 

"should" is scientifically ambiguous IMO.

For example bottled ketchup is ambient shelf stable (= low risk in many, but not all, classifications) but is nonetheless often preferred to be stored in the refrigerator.

[MQA]

Foods that will perish if out of the fridge for more than two hours on an average-weather day.  Today in Melbourne, that would be about ten minutes; it's so hot here right now.  

 

I also consider high risk to refer to items that require cooking due to the bacteria content.  Such as raw meats, seafood, raw eggs.  The raw meats and seafood, yes must be refrigerated.  But on an average-weather day, eggs do not.  

[hygienic]

Hi hygienic,

 

"should" is scientifically ambiguous IMO.

For example bottled ketchup is ambient shelf stable (= low risk in many, but not all, classifications) but is nonetheless often preferred to be stored in the refrigerator.

Hi Charles

 

in my life ,When ever going to the restaurant , always seen bottled ketchup kept on the customers table as a condiments .

[hygienic]

 I  also consider high risk to refer to items that require cooking due to the bacteria content.  Such as raw meats, seafood, raw eggs.  The raw meats and seafood,

 

I totally agree with this

[Charles.C]

Hi hygienic,

 

Just have a look at a few of the options-

 

http://www.fda.gov/F...s/ucm094143.htm

 

http://www.rsafoodsa...hRiskFoods.html

 

https://www2.warwick...ndlowriskfoods/

 

And countless others. The terminology is basically a matter of opinion. IMO.

 

And ketchup the same.

 

from Mr(?) Heinz -

 

Q: Do I need to refrigerate Ketchup? 

A: Because of its natural acidity, Heinz® Ketchup is shelf-stable. However, its stability after opening can be affected by storage conditions. We recommend that this product, like any processed food, be refrigerated after opening. Refrigeration will maintain the best product quality after opening.

[Charles.C]

addendum - 1 more "thesis"

 

 FSMA High-Risk Draft Approach 013114.pdf   216.96KB   48 downloads

[JohnWheat]

From a production view point high risk is product ready to eat that will have no other process applied to 'make it safe to eat'.
High Risk - Has now been cooked and chilled and ready to eat
Low Risk - requires cooking to make it safe to eat.

[Charles.C]

From a production view point high risk is product ready to eat that will have no other process applied to 'make it safe to eat'.
High Risk - Has now been cooked and chilled and ready to eat
Low Risk - requires cooking to make it safe to eat.

 

Hi John,

 

Not sure what you meant by a Production POV but I assumed the OP is referring to the finished product.

 

If the latter I presume you would then classify canned (sterilized) foods as high risk.

 

I believe Canada agrees with you but many (all?) other locations probably not.

[hygienic]

Hi hygienic,

 

Just have a look at a few of the options-

 

http://www.fda.gov/F...s/ucm094143.htm

 

http://www.rsafoodsa...hRiskFoods.html

 

https://www2.warwick...ndlowriskfoods/

 

And countless others. The terminology is basically a matter of opinion. IMO.

 

And ketchup the same.

 

from Mr(?) Heinz -

 

Q: Do I need to refrigerate Ketchup? 

A: Because of its natural acidity, Heinz® Ketchup is shelf-stable. However, its stability after opening can be affected by storage conditions. We recommend that this product, like any processed food, be refrigerated after opening. Refrigeration will maintain the best product quality after opening.

 

 

Hi Charles

 

Many thanks for the documents , now as I read that the HRF is considered based on different criterias, and as I understood that some are considering Raw foods as HRFs and some are considered RTE is HRF, but IMO both(Raw food such as Raw fish and RT) if kept in DZ will allow bacteria to grow and will affect the product even there is a cooking step (for Raw food) 

I agree with for bottled ketchup if kept in ambient temperature it can affect  the quality not the food safety .  

 

regards

hygienic     

[hygienic]

Hi John,

 

Not sure what you meant by a Production POV but I assumed the OP is referring to the finished product.

 

If the latter I presume you would then classify canned (sterilized) foods as high risk.

 

I believe Canada agrees with you but many (all?) other locations probably not.

I think here if canned food or sterilized food opened then it will consider as HRF and it has to be refrigerated .

[Charles.C]

I think here if canned food or sterilized food opened then it will consider as HRF and it has to be refrigerated .

 

Hi hygienic,

 

Perhaps it's better to stop using the "X Risk Food" terminology altogether.

 

Here's another lengthy but, IMO, dubious definition (SQF) -

High Risk Food 

 

Food or food product with known attributes for microbiological growth, physical or chemical contamination or a known food allergen, or which due to a process type may allow for the survival of pathogenic microbial flora or other contamination which, if not controlled, may contribute to illness of the consumer. It may also apply to a food that is deemed high risk by a customer, declared high risk by the relevant food regulation or has caused a major foodborne illness outbreak.

 

 

So the choice is totally up-to-you. Win-win.

[trubertq]

What John means, is that in the production setting, those are the definitions for High and Low risk. 
 
 

High risk (chilled and frozen)
This is a physically segregated area (see below) designed to a high hygiene standard where practices relating to personnel, ingredients, equipment, packaging and environment aim to prevent contamination by pathogenic micro-organisms. Products which require handling in a high-risk area meet all of the following:
 
•The finished products require chilling or freezing during storage to preserve food safety.
•All components have received a full cook process to a minimum of 70ºC for 2 minutes or equivalent (see Appendix 3) before entry to the area.
•The finished products are vulnerable to the growth of pathogens (e.g. Listeria species) or the survival of pathogens, which could subsequently grow during the normal storage or use of the product (e.g. if a frozen product is defrosted but not immediately consumed).
•The finished products are ready to eat or ready to heat or, on the basis of known consumer use, are likely to be eaten without adequate cooking.

Examples of products considered as high risk include cooked sliced meats and fully cooked prepared meals.

This is the BRC definition of high risk.... there is a very good appendix in the standard on zoning etc... I am reluctant to reproduce it all here for copyright reasons

[JohnWheat]

What John means, is that in the production setting, those are the definitions for High and Low risk. 
 
 

This is the BRC definition of high risk.... there is a very good appendix in the standard on zoning etc... I am reluctant to reproduce it all here for copyright reasons

Yes, exactly that. Thanks sent

[Charles.C]

Hi John,

 

No problem but on re-reading yr post I had decided the initial error was mine, eg  I noted from yr text -

 

From a production view point high risk is product ready to eat that will have no other process applied to 'make it safe to eat'.

 

Actually this is not an unreasonable definition of HRP from a BRC POV but incomplete as per their glossary.

 

Perhaps another illustration of the benefit in deleting  HRP / LRP options from the Global Food Dictionary. Probably as BRC should have done from the start.

 

HR/LR+ Zones, HR/LR+  Suppliers is quite enough already IMO.

There is no mention of HRP/LRP in the BRC auditable text and only 2 (for the former) elsewhere including the glossary.

2 swipes of the mouse. Finito.

 

And then on to AHCP - one more swipe to complete the revision.

[JohnWheat]

Which goes back to the OP Charles........is the question related to food in their raw state or after we've done the business with them :) ?

Im purely looking at it from producer point of view.

We only produce raw poultry (with some added value lines) and are therefore classed low risk requiring a further process after leaving us to make it safe to eat (cooking)

At a previous employer we had high risk product in that we had cooked and chilled poultry 'ready to eat'

 

The thread has got messy in that the question wasn't clear IMO ?

[Charles.C]

Which goes back to the OP Charles........is the question related to food in their raw state or after we've done the business with them :) ?

Im purely looking at it from producer point of view.

We only produce raw poultry (with some added value lines) and are therefore classed low risk requiring a further process after leaving us to make it safe to eat (cooking)

At a previous employer we had high risk product in that we had cooked and chilled poultry 'ready to eat'

 

The thread has got messy in that the question wasn't clear IMO ?

 

I think it was process end-product oriented but sort of "general".

 

IMO the messiness also comes from the absence of a standard set of criteria for the HR,LR terms.

 

Just as an example here is a Canadian HR-LR  convenient product listing derived from a simple criterion but different to the one you are using -

 

 HR-LR.png   91.87KB   0 downloads

 

Yr current raw end-product, which i agree with you is typical "low risk" from a haccp POV, would now appear to be high risk.

 

Messy is the right word.