10 replies to this topic

[Jkaur]

Hi Everyone,

 

We manufacture soups containing meat/poultry served at retail establishments. Cooling the soup bags and cups immediately after cooking is a CCP for us. The temperature should get to under 55F in less than 6 hours. 

We cool the soup bags using a cold water bath. In order to measure the temperature of the cooled bag a designated plant employee randomly selects one sample bag per lot and fold the bag over the thermometer probe.

How can we validate the method-folding the bag over a thermometer to record the internal temperature of the soup? 

 

Thanks for your help.

 

 

[Slab]

Hi, Jkaur;

 

Among other methods such as microbiological profile, I use an immersible recorder such as this to track process temps. Just place in sample and retrieve when process is assumed complete with verification activities/records.

 

 The temperature should get to under 55F in less than 6 hours. 

 

 

Would you please provide citation for this critical limit?  

 

Thanks

[Charles.C]

Hi Everyone,

 

We manufacture soups containing meat/poultry served at retail establishments. Cooling the soup bags and cups immediately after cooking is a CCP for us. The temperature should get to under 55F in less than 6 hours. 

We cool the soup bags using a cold water bath. In order to measure the temperature of the cooled bag a designated plant employee randomly selects one sample bag per lot and fold the bag over the thermometer probe.

How can we validate the method-folding the bag over a thermometer to record the internal temperature of the soup? 

 

Thanks for your help.

 

Hi Jkaur,

 

The meaningful temperature (MT) is that at the warmest location in the warmest soup bag.

Yr procedure is applicable IMO if you can show/implement a reliable correlation table/graph between yr measurement and MT. My guess is a substantial, and variable, temp.difference exists. Yr critical limit is not familiar to me ?

 

It seems simpler to hygienicly measure the temperature in randomly selected bags, eg intermittently via a sanitary thermocouple probe (inexpensive) or by units such as described in previous post (cost?).

 

Cooling times for cooked food is historically (and globally) a contentious topic. Regulatory-wise, 55degF is I believe an unusual objective these days in US.

[Jkaur]

Hi, Jkaur;

 

Among other methods such as microbiological profile, I use an immersible recorder such as this to track process temps. Just place in sample and retrieve when process is assumed complete with verification activities/records.

 

 

Would you please provide citation for this critical limit?  

 

Thanks

 

 

Hi,

 

Thanks ! The reference is USDA Appendix B- Compliance guidelines for cooling heat-treated meat and poultry products (stabilization).

 

http://www.fsis.usda..._Appendix B.htm

[Jkaur]

Hi, Jkaur;

 

Among other methods such as microbiological profile, I use an immersible recorder such as this to track process temps. Just place in sample and retrieve when process is assumed complete with verification activities/records.

 

 

Would you please provide citation for this critical limit?  

 

Thanks

 

 

Hi,

 

Thanks ! The reference is USDA Appendix B- Compliance guidelines for cooling heat-treated meat and poultry products (stabilization).

 

http://www.fsis.usda..._Appendix B.htm

[Charles.C]

Hi Jkaur,

 

Thks for link. I note it is dated 1999.

 

I seem to recall a lengthy discussion here over detailed US cooling requirements some time ago.

i think the conclusion then was that for production scale quantities, the official requirements were impossible to meet without a blast chiller.

The situation/limitations in 1999 (including the 55degF scenario) are summarised in this document by Snyder -

http://www.hi-tm.com...Basic-cool.html

 

I am curious as to the typical "core" product temperature in yr bags after 6 hours vs the external indicated temperature ?

[Slab]

Hi,

 

Thanks ! The reference is USDA Appendix B- Compliance guidelines for cooling heat-treated meat and poultry products (stabilization).

 

http://www.fsis.usda..._Appendix B.htm

 

Interesting. Not to get side tracked, but;

 

I see you have chosen the more dated control strategy as opposed to (no. 2)...

1. During cooling, the product's maximum internal temperature should not remain between 130°F and 80°F for more than 1.5 hours nor between 80°F and 40°F for more than 5 hours. This cooling rate can be applied universally to cooked products (e.g., partially cooked or fully cooked, intact or non-intact, meat or poultry) and is preferable to (2) below.

 

 

This tiered time/temp matrix seems more conducive to limiting the growth of spoilage and pathogenic organisms. However, either control strategy would require a validation (to put the topic back on mark). How you conduct the validation could be done numerous ways. The most effective means when it comes to a thermal process is an analog sample measurement (i.e. immersible recorders, inoculation/micro work) which mirrors the actual verification activities (sample points, sample rates, etc.) Plus with data loggers and lab reports you have hard numbers and charts. Investigating and auditing bodies love curvy charts... 

[KTD]

A little off topic...

 

Charles -

 

You are correct about the age of Appendix B; however, up until this time, USDA FSIS has upheld its use. It considers the options as 'safe havens' based on previous/exisiting data. Other stabilization activities can be used with appropriate validation.

 

Jkaur -

 

Be aware that in its monthly conf call with industry, USDA FSIS yesterday announced that it is in the process of issuing a compliance guideline for Stabilization (see below). Since the announcement was only added to the publication list this month, it could be anywhere from 1 month to 6 months or a year before it's actually published.

 

 

**FSIS Compliance Guideline for Stabilization (Cooling and Hot-Holding) of Full and Partially Heat-Treated RTE and NRTE Meat and Poultry Products Produced by Small and Very Small Establishments and Revised Appendix B

This guidance document is designed to help small and very small meat and poultry establishments that produce heat-treated (both full and partially heat-treated) RTE and NRTE meat and poultry products that stabilize their products by cooling or hot-holding understand: regulatory requirements associated with stabilization (cooling and hot-holding); scientific support documents available to help develop a safe process and product; and recommended corrective actions in the event of a cooling deviation. This document contains recommendations previously found in FSIS Appendix B Compliance Guidelines for Cooling Heat-Treated Meat and Poultry Products (Stabilization) of the final rule, “Performance Standards for the Production of Certain Meat and Poultry Products” (64 FR 732) and FSIS Directive 7110.3, Rev. 1 Time/Temperature Guidelines for Cooling Heated Products dated January, 24, 1989.

 

KTD

[MQA]

How we do it in Australia land.  See attached.

 

I query the cold water bath: mechanical to retain coolness?  How consistence cold is the batch?  Should this be the CCP and checked and not the product?  Are you able to purchase a blast chiller?  You already know what the critical limits are for your cooling... you have to ensure the process and the equipment being used is capable of this.  This is where I would place the CCP.  

 

I see no problem of testing outside of product if soup is thinner consistency, but it may depend on size of product?  Would the outside temperature be consistent with internal?  If large packaging, and thick soup consistency then probably not?  

 

Also, is product fully sealed and packaged prior to placing into cold water bath?  If so, shouldn't product be aired out first, to allow for a quicker cooling timeframe?  

 

If product is opened, then assurance required that staff would diligently used a cleaned and sanitised thermometer for testing.  

 

If overall, you are confident with your processes, then perhaps consider a monthly or bi-annual, or annual validation only of product, but a daily validation of the equipment used to cool product down.  

 

 

[MQA]

Oops.  See attached now... 

Attached Files

•  Food Safety Rules - poster A4.pdf   674.88KB   104 downloads

[Charles.C]

Dear All,

 

Here is the 2011 thread which prompted my comment that in many situations a lot of these oft-quoted "requirements" are only feasible on paper   - 

 

http://www.ifsqn.com...chilling-stage/

(esp Post 9)

 

The background is not quite same as present but i anticipate the conclusions will be similar.

 

Rules are fine but only if Validatable.