31 replies to this topic

[Kylo]

I would like to seek opinion whether raw duck/duck parts (deboning, marinating) in vacuum packed can share the same blast freezer with cooked duck meat/duck parts (like smoked, roasted duck/parts).

If cannot share, what are the food safety concern as I think both can share the same freezer.
Appreciate your kind sharing.
Thanks..

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[Charles.C]

I would like to seek opinion whether raw duck/duck parts (deboning, marinating) in vacuum packed can share the same blast freezer with cooked duck meat/duck parts (like smoked, roasted duck/parts).

If cannot share, what are the food safety concern as I think both can share the same freezer.
Appreciate your kind sharing.
Thanks..

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Hi Kylo,

 

IMEX it is considered best practice to use a dedicated freezer for cooked products.

The reason - to avoid possibilities of cross-contamination.

[Kylo]

Hi Charles,
Thanks, much appreciated..

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[3560lynne]

It's ideal to have a dedicated room/freezer/storage area but not all facilities have that luxury. Vacuum packaged raw and vacuum packaged cooked on separate racks in same area? IMO, acceptable. When items cannot be separated by physical barriers (i.e., walls and rooms) then use time and space.

[Kylo]

Hi 3560lynne
Thanks for the advice.
Vacuum packed raw and vacuum packed cooked in same blast freezer but different rack. If space too little, vacuum packed cooked on top, vacuum packed raw beneath on same rack.

On second thought, both raw and cooked are wrapped, not exposed. The possible route of cross contamination is it via airborne although the produxts were not open?

Rgds

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[3560lynne]

If space is so tight that you have to put packaged cooked product over packaged raw product on the same rack, I'd give consideration to the possibility of packages leaking prior to freezing and there's where possible cross contamination occurs. I'd look for some kind of barrier (think baking sheets or something) between the cooked and raw so there is some kind of complete barrier on the same rack if leaking occurs. 

[Charles.C]

If space is so tight that you have to put packaged cooked product over packaged raw product on the same rack, I'd give consideration to the possibility of packages leaking prior to freezing and there's where possible cross contamination occurs. I'd look for some kind of barrier (think baking sheets or something) between the cooked and raw so there is some kind of complete barrier on the same rack if leaking occurs. 

 

Hmmm. I sense a potential micro. disaster.

 

Not wishing to be overly conservative but this is vacpacked RTE food being discussed.

 

I slightly wonder what kind of handling segregations preceded this all-purpose freezing unit.

 

I suggest the OP initially seek any published support for the envisaged manouevres.

[Kylo]

Many thanks for all advice.
Therefore the food safety concern is on water dripping rather than airborne cross contamination as long as the package is fully seal.
May i know am i on the right track?

Rgds

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[Charles.C]

Many thanks for all advice.
Therefore the food safety concern is on water dripping rather than airborne cross contamination as long as the package is fully seal.
May i know am i on the right track?

Rgds

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If you mean the right track from a future audit POV, then IMEX of high risk foods - No.

 

Perhaps other people have had different experiences.

 

As noted, I would also like to know more about the Process Flowchart.

[Kylo]

Hi Charles,
Before that may I know what does POV, IMEX stand for?

My initial idea on the process flow as following.
(this is a new plant where production yet to start but facility wise is ready, with small freezer. In same plant, two section dedicate to run raw, another two to run cooked).

Raw/marinate section:
Rm recepit ---> deboning----> ingre. mixing ----> marinating -----> holding -----> vacuum packing ----> blast freezing -----> cartoning

Cooked sections:
Rm receipt from deboning -----> ingre.mixing -----> marinating ----> drying ---> smoking/roasting ----> vacuum packing-----> blast freezing -----> cartoning.

Rgds.

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[Charles.C]

Hi Charles,
Before that may I know what does POV, IMEX stand for?

My initial idea on the process flow as following.
(this is a new plant where production yet to start but facility wise is ready, with small freezer. In same plant, two section dedicate to run raw, another two to run cooked).

Raw/marinate section:
Rm recepit ---> deboning----> ingre. mixing ----> marinating -----> holding -----> vacuum packing ----> blast freezing -----> cartoning

Cooked sections:
Rm receipt from deboning -----> ingre.mixing -----> marinating ----> drying ---> smoking/roasting ----> vacuum packing-----> blast freezing -----> cartoning.

Rgds.

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Hi Kylo,

 

Thanks for the flow chart.

I assume you have 2 dedicated vacuum packing units.

I assume the freezer has only one entry so the 2 lines somehow converge and then after freezing somehow diverge again.?

 

IMEX = In my experience

POV - Point of View

[Kylo]

Hi Charles
2 dedicated vacuum packed machine.
One enter door into blast freezer, another door for FG out.


Rgds

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[Charles.C]

Hi Charles
2 dedicated vacuum packed machine.
One enter door into blast freezer, another door for FG out.


Rgds

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So the lines must join into the freezer then separate later assuming final packing of high risk in a separate room.

[Kylo]

Hi Charles
Final packing (into secondary or tertiary packaging) is in a common packing room.
Perhaps can only separate by time but before into freezer, all products must in an intact, fully sealed package.

Much appreciated, thanks.
Same goes to 3560lynne.

Rgds

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[Charles.C]

Hi Charles
Final packing (into secondary or tertiary packaging) is in a common packing room.
Perhaps can only separate by time but before into freezer, all products must in an intact, fully sealed package.

Much appreciated, thanks.
Same goes to 3560lynne.

Rgds

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Hi kylo,

 

The red will IMO be highly questionable.

 

Good Luck anyway !

[Kylo]

Hi Charles
Noted with many thanks.
Shall discuss with mngt what can be done in final packing room like physical separation.

Rgds~~

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[3560lynne]

You say two sections to run raw and another two to run cooked - is it a common area for deboning, add ingredients and marinate for all cooked and raw product?

[Kylo]

Hi 3560lynne
Deboning is a dedicated room.
Deboned meat will then use at another raw room for marinating.
Deboned meat will also use at another 2 cooked rooms.

Rgds

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[Scampi]

I would urge you (since building is not completed yet) to force them into purchasing another freezer

 

Besides, blast freezers are not usually used for storage (they are expensive suckers to run) and you run the risk of temperature abuse when putting warm product into a freezer full of frozen/freezing meat

 

So this problem is larger than you thought, you're blast freezer is going to need validated and you can't do that with a door being opened and closed on both sides.....

 

In a perfect world, you should have a dedicated blast for raw and cooked and a 3rd freezer for storage, where you put product ALREADY IN CARTONS in dedicated raw/cooked areas (as long as it's rock solid and sealed prior to intermingling

 

Speaking from experience, you can put cooked and raw into the same STORAGE freezer but never a BLAST

[Kylo]

Hi Scampi
Thank you for valuable guidance.


Rgds

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[Kylo]

Hi all
Further to all input gathered, I have discussion with mngt and they agree to have 2 separate blast freezers (one for cooked, one for raw), another is cold room for storage.

My question now is on "cooked product" cooling location.
There is one cooked room, both raw meat like pre-marinade and cooked meat will handle in the same room.
Example marinate meat will put into oven for roasting. Then the roasted/cooked meat on tray in a rack (expose to environment) MUST cool/hold in a separate room with full wall height to prevent microbe contamination.
Is my justification correct?

All advice is very much appreciated.

Rgds,


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[Charles.C]

Hi all
Further to all input gathered, I have discussion with mngt and they agree to have 2 separate blast freezers (one for cooked, one for raw), another is cold room for storage.

My question now is on "cooked product" cooling location.
There is one cooked room, both raw meat like pre-marinade and cooked meat will handle in the same room.
Example marinate meat will put into oven for roasting. Then the roasted/cooked meat on tray in a rack (expose to environment) MUST cool/hold in a separate room with full wall height to prevent microbe contamination.
Is my justification correct?

All advice is very much appreciated.

Rgds,


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Hi kylo,

 

Yr text is a little confusing.

 

Do the words cooked and roasted refer to the same item ? ie cooked = roasted, "cooking room" = a room with an oven ?

 

If yes, is the oven a single door, ie used for both input/output ?

 

Why do you want to cool it before freezing ?

[Kylo]

Dear Charles
Cooked = roasted
Cooking room have : single door oven, cooking pot, griller.
Reason of cooling:
From my reading, cooling of meat and poultry products is critical for prevention of pathogens. They must be cooled from 140F to 70F within 2 hours, and then from 70F to 41F within 4 hours.

Do share your thought if any as I have no experience dealing with RTE poultry.
Thanks..

Rgds

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[Charles.C]

Dear Charles
Cooked = roasted
Cooking room have : single door oven, cooking pot, griller.
Reason of cooling:
From my reading, cooling of meat and poultry products is critical for prevention of pathogens. They must be cooled from 140F to 70F within 2 hours, and then from 70F to 41F within 4 hours.

Do share your thought if any as I have no experience dealing with RTE poultry.
Thanks..

Rgds

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Hi kylo,

 

Thks for response.

 

My experience is with cooked seafood.

 

After pre-processing followed by cooking, the typical procedure is to transfer the cooked product directly to freezer which then achieves the kind of temperature/time reductions you mention + delivering frozen (core temp. <=(-)18degC) finished product. Frozen product is then transferred to cold store and packed later

 

However yr options will perhaps be different depending on the specific flowchart.

[Kylo]

Hi Charles
Thanks for sharing.
I did check with some industry player, method is also direct freezing after cooked as you have mentioned for cooked seafood

Rgds

P/s: Any other input from meat/poultry manufacturing is much appreciated.


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