14 replies to this topic

[James Dough]

Just reposting this as the title didn't fit in the last one and it is misleading for my issue.

 

ISO 22000, requirement, how am I expected to do a hazard assessment on this many products, ingredients and packaging materials?

 

Will subcategorizing them work? What do other ISO 22000 certified restaurants do?

 

http://active.inspec...introe.aspx?i=1

 

http://www.inspectio...9/1364492481518

 

I am not a restaurant supply, I am  manufacturer but I used the CFIA reference database (first link) for quite a bit of hazard analysis data as well as the CFIA HACCP examples (2nd link) to create my analysis. Its a start but I am not sure how you handle the volume of materials you have.

 

James

Edited by Charles.C, 04 December 2018 - 06:05 AM.
JF Clarity, above post actually from schnitzelman

[ersuhail]

Hello schnitzelman,

 

There  is an option of grouping ingredients into sub groups. Items like dry nuts can be a group, fresh vegetables can be another group, canned items can be another, dairy products, frozen meat, so so on... 

Overall characteristics of raw materials can be written for each sub group. This is how we have been doing as a certified Restaurants Company. 

[Charles.C]

Just reposting this as the title didn't fit in the last one and it is misleading for my issue.

 

ISO 22000, requirement, how am I expected to do a hazard assessment on this many products, ingredients and packaging materials?

 

Will subcategorizing them work? What do other ISO 22000 certified restaurants do?

 

hi schnitzelman,

 

To avoid wasting search time, are you already familiar with solution below  and are seeking something different ?

 

One haccp grouping option long ago developed for the restaurant industry by USDA/USFDA was/is to categorize by "process type". This led to publishing  a huge range of products into 2-3 haccp categories plus explanative manuals were issued ca 2005. Both manuals have been posted here numerous times.

 

PS - @ schnitzelman - it unfortunately screws up the internal Forum dating system when you start duplicating  topics. I have deleted yr first version and copied the lost post underneath.

 

PS - I include the post below submitted by James Dough / copied from original thread -

 

http://active.inspec...introe.aspx?i=1

 

http://www.inspectio...9/1364492481518

 

I am not a restaurant supply, I am  manufacturer but I used the CFIA reference database (first link) for quite a bit of hazard analysis data as well as the CFIA HACCP examples (2nd link) to create my analysis. Its a start but I am not sure how you handle the volume of materials you have. 

 

James

 

[schnitzelman]

Hey guys, thanks I appreciate it. Reading deeper into the Canadian FSEP so I have something to fall back on in case the auditor challenges the 'subcategory' method.

[Charles.C]

Hey guys, thanks I appreciate it. Reading deeper into the Canadian FSEP so I have something to fall back on in case the auditor challenges the 'subcategory' method.

 

Hi schnitzelman,

 

Perhaps you could respond to query in my post also ?

[schnitzelman]

Hi Charles,

 

I did a quick search and could not locate the USDA manuals you referred to (however we have similar in our Canadian manuals ie. FSEP). 

 

As for process types, they would be the same as the HACCP Plans I made for our site: Cold Food, Hot Food, Bakery, Microwave Meals (to go). I did hazard assessments on these processes, but the auditor did not approve this as our "materials, ingredients and packaging" assessment. The auditor also called for the Finished Product descriptions (once again, not feasible with a rotating menu of hundreds of items with no standardized recipes).

 

So the only way I can think of making this possible is to subcategorize by product type; fresh herbs, fresh produce, fresh beef, frozen beef. Of course, I don't see the point in this since the hazards between similar products will be the same, and are already included in the hazard assessment of the HACCP Plans (cooking, storage, cooling, etc.)

[Charles.C]

Hi Charles,

 

I did a quick search and could not locate the USDA manuals you referred to (however we have similar in our Canadian manuals ie. FSEP). 

 

As for process types, they would be the same as the HACCP Plans I made for our site: Cold Food, Hot Food, Bakery, Microwave Meals (to go). I did hazard assessments on these processes, but the auditor did not approve this as our "materials, ingredients and packaging" assessment. The auditor also called for the Finished Product descriptions (once again, not feasible with a rotating menu of hundreds of items with no standardized recipes).

 

So the only way I can think of making this possible is to subcategorize by product type; fresh herbs, fresh produce, fresh beef, frozen beef. Of course, I don't see the point in this since the hazards between similar products will be the same, and are already included in the hazard assessment of the HACCP Plans (cooking, storage, cooling, etc.)

 

Hi schnitzelman,

 

Thks yr response.

 

afaik CFIA/FSEP have no particular interaction with iso22000 ?? Accordingly I'm a little confused as to yr specific objectives ?

(IIRC, CFIA's "OPRP" is operationally quite dissimilar to ISO22000's pestilent (IMO) function of the same name ?)

 

Anyway I have assumed below you are interested in "general" haccp propositions. If you have to subsequently get cfia (or iso22000) approval, that may sadly limit yr options  thereby possibly  rendering other suggestions inapplicable.

 

FSEP is, from memory, totally unrelated to the USDA manual "linked" below. (IMHO the FSEP manual is useful but lacks explanative material, eg the word "matrix" appears nowhere in the document)(nonetheless the cfia website does  have some brilliant examples of haccp plans albeit few in number).

 

Actually there are a lot of threads here relating to haccp plans with large numbers of products since it is a not uncommon scenario. However they are widely scattered under often unrelated titles.

 

Here are 3 posts illustrating aspects of the problem (the surrounding posts give further context). -

 

https://www.ifsqn.co...eed/#entry96547

https://www.ifsqn.co...are/#entry48992

https://www.ifsqn.co...ary/#entry48741

 

The USDA manual is in 1st/2nd links above. The USFDA related  manuals are attached below  -

 

 USFDA - Operator's Retail HACCP Manual.pdf   555.55KB   56 downloads

 USFDA Regulator's Manual for HACCP Retail Inspections.pdf   2.25MB   54 downloads

 

You will see that all 3 manuals are (analogously) focused on process concepts as an aid to haccp grouping.

 

One of the key listed references (NFSMI) in above links seems to sadly now contain only broken sub-links, however I think their original related (list) content is well illustrated in my attachments (gg3,4) in the post itself. (I may have some more saved content in my archives if any further interest). (Maybe the material is still available on NFSMI website also.)

 

Anyway, hopefully the above is interesting even if you were aware of it all already ?

[schnitzelman]

Charles, very interesting, and I am very grateful for your informative response! Yes, the FSEP manual does lack in description, and leaves lots up to interpretation. Therefore the auditor will base their audits and assumptions off of prior experience (i.e. auditing a food processing plant with far less numbers of products, then coming to my establishment). I will take some time to go through the resources you have provided.

 

What really stood out for me is the difference between the CFIA's OPRP definition and the ISO22000 one...... I have been running with the CFIA's definition which covers allergen and foreign material control. In fact, that is how I am avoiding CCPs in these areas because I am stating they are covered in the OPRPs (part of the PRPs as per FSEP).

[Scampi]

YOu could group your incoming foods (fresh produce/fresh meat/frozen produce/frozen meat etc) the hazards will be fairly similar

 

As for finished products, in order to satisfy HACCP you need to have some sort of "spec" so again, probably grouping like items together

 

So meat + sauce + starch + veg

 

pasta+sauce+cheese

 

salad + nuts + cheese

 

I'm assuming you have some sort of recipe book (at the very least for profit margins) that you could use as your basis for the finished products

 

This might also end being a cost savings measure..............you may discover that your 3000 materials could actually be reduced to say 2500 by altering recipes that may be the only one that uses say something like fish sauce or capers......

[schnitzelman]

Hi Scampi, 

 

As of right now, I have a hazard assessment for each process in each HACCP Plan (those being hot food, cold food, bakery, etc.)

 

The auditor wanted to see a complete hazard assessment for incoming materials, ingredients, etc. 

 

As per your post, yes, the hazards are very similar if not identical for incoming foods. Plus, the receiving hazards are already covered in the process hazard assessment.

 

Do you think it will satisfy the auditor to now just do a hazard assessment on the incoming foods and packaging, without having to go into the process as this is already done? So for hot food, I have receiving, storage, cooking, etc. In this 'incoming materials' assessment, can I just put my grouping , i.e. fresh and frozen raw meat, general hazards? B,P,C hazards that are general and not specific to a process such as receiving. It will already be redundant enough.

 

Thanks

[Scampi]

Generally a haccp plan does require you to perform a hazard analysis on ALL incoming materials, but i can certainly understand how large this job will be. 

Are you using CFIA combined form 8?

 

I would group them

Liquid dairy

Solid dairy 

Fresh produce

Frozen produce

etc etc

 

The B, C and P end up being the same by type...........and obviously something like bulk flour (e coli) has different hazards than bulk sugar (pests)

[schnitzelman]

Hi Scampi, 

 

I have grouped the products into like groups, so I've got about 30 to do. The issue is that I have already completed the hazard assessment for each of our processes for each hazard group - just didn't include all the materials. So now I am just doing a lot of copying and pasting from that to the materials one, would've been nice to merge the forms like the CFIA one to be less redundant but this is where i am now.

 

So I will truck on til it is done! 

 

Thank you Scampi for your help

[Charles.C]

I would have thought it easiest to group by Process. Assuming that the CCPs are equivalent.

 

And possibly an appropriate case for software. (And free advice ?).

[Scampi]

I would have thought it easiest to group by Process. Assuming that the CCPs are equivalent.

 

And possibly an appropriate case for software. (And free advice ?).

 

But then the hazards that might apply just at receiving are not explored.......and our new Canadian regulations require it as part of the PCP regardless of what a GFSI wants

[Charles.C]

But then the hazards that might apply just at receiving are not explored.......and our new Canadian regulations require it as part of the PCP regardless of what a GFSI wants

 

Hi Scampi,

 

Unfortunately not familiar with Canadian requirements so unable to comment on that aspect.

 

I agree yr point on "receiving". In "normal" haccp I would not anticipate this would be a significant problem in practice since only 2-3 variations are likely ? One solution if this was a problem could be to implement a modular approach. I have enclosed a sample in attachments below.

 

Regardless, the OP's specific flow charts are unknown so detailed analysis not possible.

 

JFI, here are a number of extracts which I thought might be of some casual  interest to the OP. -

 

 grp1 - modular haccp plan structure.PNG   44.69KB   3 downloads

 grp2 - grouped flowchart.png   451.98KB   1 downloads

 grp3 - example grouping.png   495.24KB   0 downloads

 grp4 - retail flow processes presented as 5 product categories.PNG   203.3KB   0 downloads