21 replies to this topic

[MommaJones]

I'm curious if anyone has not had Operations or other management representation during the audit walkthrough. I'm a couple of days away from our SQF recert audit and just learned that the only person that ever accompanied the auditor was quality. Then they would have a Q&A session afterwards.

 

I've been in quality for 20 years and have been in 3-4 dozen audits and I've never heard of quality going alone without Ops representation. I don't mind going it alone but there are things I'm not going to be able to answer and to me it seems that having Ops there takes care of the questions immediately rather than looping back around. 

 

Just curious to see if others have experienced this.

 

Thanks

[Juribe]

I am the QA Manager for our facility. I am always the one to accompany the auditor, although sometimes my assistant will tag along too. 

[SQFconsultant]

At every facility we've had the pleasure of working with on-site it has always been all-hands-on at audit time, thus it was not the exception that we would have a rep from every department and most always the owners. presidents, etc.  This is the joy I guess of working with small to mid-size companies.

 

As a former Auditor I would have to say that 50% of SQF and 3rd party audits I did were with 1 person only, a couple wanted me to go-it-alone (which I refused to do) and somewhere around 25% of so had multiple people on board for the walk.

 

Operations was almost always present along with Quality Assurance.

 

Out-briefs were sometimes where those that were not interested in process would show up and then cause issues for those that were on the audit and/or the Auditor.

 

So get bunches to come with you - it certainly does show seriousness as to the food safety culture and then you don't have to be saying, I will check on that and on this - it just looks bad.

[MommaJones]

At every facility we've had the pleasure of working with on-site it has always been all-hands-on at audit time, thus it was not the exception that we would have a rep from every department and most always the owners. presidents, etc.  This is the joy I guess of working with small to mid-size companies.

 

As a former Auditor I would have to say that 50% of SQF and 3rd party audits I did were with 1 person only, a couple wanted me to go-it-alone (which I refused to do) and somewhere around 25% of so had multiple people on board for the walk.

 

Operations was almost always present along with Quality Assurance.

 

Out-briefs were sometimes where those that were not interested in process would show up and then cause issues for those that were on the audit and/or the Auditor.

 

So get bunches to come with you - it certainly does show seriousness as to the food safety culture and then you don't have to be saying, I will check on that and on this - it just looks bad.

 

I agree with it looking bad. I would worry that it gave the impression that only quality was engaged and not the company as a whole. Not a good look to have. When it was posed to me today to go alone with the auditor, I didn't refuse. But what I did say was I have never done that nor have I ever heard that. Operations will know things I cannot and rather than say "Not sure I'll have to get back to you" I think we'll look more organized if the question gets answered right away. I can do it alone, I just don't think it looks good as an organization if I do. SQF isn't done by quality alone so why should the audit be on quality alone?

[SQFconsultant]

" I agree with it looking bad. I would worry that it gave the impression that only quality was engaged and not the company as a whole. Not a good look to have. When it was posed to me today to go alone with the auditor, I didn't refuse. But what I did say was I have never done that nor have I ever heard that. Operations will know things I cannot and rather than say "Not sure I'll have to get back to you" I think we'll look more organized if the question gets answered right away. I can do it alone, I just don't think it looks good as an organization if I do. SQF isn't done by quality alone so why should the audit be on quality alone? "

 

You can use me for ammo to go back and ask for Operational personnel to come along - as in all companies however,  you do want to make sure you don't take along the blabber-mouths that because they have not been exposed to this type of audit start answering questions and they can't stop - so make sure you prep your entourage for the audit.  Oh the stories I could tell.

Edited by SQFconsultant, 16 July 2020 - 09:06 PM.

[MommaJones]

" I agree with it looking bad. I would worry that it gave the impression that only quality was engaged and not the company as a whole. Not a good look to have. When it was posed to me today to go alone with the auditor, I didn't refuse. But what I did say was I have never done that nor have I ever heard that. Operations will know things I cannot and rather than say "Not sure I'll have to get back to you" I think we'll look more organized if the question gets answered right away. I can do it alone, I just don't think it looks good as an organization if I do. SQF isn't done by quality alone so why should the audit be on quality alone? "

 

You can use me for ammo to go back and ask for Operational personnel to come along - as in all companies however,  you do want to make sure you don't take along the blabber-mouths that because they have not been exposed to this type of audit start answering questions and they can't stop - so make sure you prep your entourage for the audit.  Oh the stories I could tell.

 

That's a great idea and you make an excellent point. Yes I want people involved but the right people. When someone says "Did you know about this? Oh hey let me show you! I know you didn't ask but..." I'll sink into my shoes. Blabbermouths will kill you every time

[TimG]

I would almost prefer to not have ops along for the entirety. I try to structure mine as an 'everyone is on call and can be pulled in if needed' during the audit days, however I would give both maintenance and ops an hour window that they were expected to bring the records they maintained (back flow tests, PM's, pre/post op checks, etc.) I would explain to the auditor during opening meeting that I had arranged for the various department heads to come up to the meeting staggered out starting at 9:30 am (I did it early so they wouldn't think I was trying to postpone any documents).

Seemed to work well. It didn't always get all of the questions for those dept. heads answered, but it got the bulk of them.

[MommaJones]

I would almost prefer to not have ops along for the entirety. I try to structure mine as an 'everyone is on call and can be pulled in if needed' during the audit days, however I would give both maintenance and ops an hour window that they were expected to bring the records they maintained (back flow tests, PM's, pre/post op checks, etc.) I would explain to the auditor during opening meeting that I had arranged for the various department heads to come up to the meeting staggered out starting at 9:30 am (I did it early so they wouldn't think I was trying to postpone any documents).

Seemed to work well. It didn't always get all of the questions for those dept. heads answered, but it got the bulk of them.

No I wouldn't want Ops there for the entirety of the audit but I do want them there for the walk through. Is that what you did? 

[TimG]

We had a 2 man team with the auditor at all times, myself (compliance manager) and the lab manager. My backup admin was also ready to pull any documents if needed. Between the two of us, we were familiar enough with ops and maintenance to answer basic questions during the walk through without actually needing them present for the walk through.

If it was a question that we didn't know the answer to and it was important enough I would either ask a nearby operator (if it's innocuous enough) or call the plant manager to come answer. Typically though we would just write the 1 or 2 questions down and call the plant manager to ask when we get back to the office areas.

 

On that note, I heard last year SQF was pushing their auditors toward a 70-80% floor time for audits. Floor time had to involve things like employee interviews, CCP observation, in use records/form review, etc. I haven't been in an SQF audited facility for about 5 years, so that's a bit different then what I am familiar with. 

[MommaJones]

We had a 2 man team with the auditor at all times, myself (compliance manager) and the lab manager. My backup admin was also ready to pull any documents if needed. Between the two of us, we were familiar enough with ops and maintenance to answer basic questions during the walk through without actually needing them present for the walk through.

If it was a question that we didn't know the answer to and it was important enough I would either ask a nearby operator (if it's innocuous enough) or call the plant manager to come answer. Typically though we would just write the 1 or 2 questions down and call the plant manager to ask when we get back to the office areas.

 

On that note, I heard last year SQF was pushing their auditors toward a 70-80% floor time for audits. Floor time had to involve things like employee interviews, CCP observation, in use records/form review, etc. I haven't been in an SQF audited facility for about 5 years, so that's a bit different then what I am familiar with. 

 

I had not heard that. That could be interesting in our facility. Because it's July in Chicago and the manufacturing floor isn't climate controlled. 

[Ryan M.]

Get as many department personnel as you can.  This does two things...

 

1.  They can answer questions you cannot.

 

2.  They get an understanding of what is entailed in an SQF audit and a walkthrough.

 

Usually, I can deal with #1, but it is always great for them to get the experience and see the importance of SQF in action.

[lisahpw]

During an audit it is usually me and the relevant area manager who are present during the SQF audit walk through. This has worked well for us as our management team are very engaged. They are the person ultimately responsible for the performance in their area so IMO they should be present.

[AW1488]

I ask my managers to be stationed in their department areas so when we come walking through with the auditor they are ready and waiting.  I have them come to the opening meeting and then go to their areas on the production floor and make sure everything is ready.  Then when I walk through with the auditor they are already their and can answer any questions if needed or help grab an employee to show a process or procedure.  A lot of times the auditors will just go ahead and look at the records right there so i don't have to haul them out later or keep the managers on standby.

[jkoratich712]

We are a bit different. Department managers (production, sanitation, maintenance, purchasing, etc) are responsible for the audit. FS/QA will be there at kick off and wrap up and sporadically throughout the 5 days the audit takes. Also responsible for all of the work going into ensuring that the department managers are well prepared for the audit. I look at it as an opportunity for the managers to really brag about what their teams are accomplishing and how they are supporting the food safety culture of facility. This, however, comes with some resistance - but 6 years in and we are still doing it this way. My time with the auditor has become less and less.

[mgourley]

I have effectively banned our Plant Manager from going around on the walk through because he can't keep his mouth shut.

A few years ago during our BRC audit he could not shut up about "look, we have replaced all the zip ties above product areas with metal detectable zip ties".

 

The auditor, whom we have a good relationship with, finally called him out on it and asked to have a representative sample of the zip ties on several lines cut off and run through the metal detectors on those lines.
Thankfully they were all detected and rejected. I pulled him aside as we were walking around and told him to shut up and go back to his office.

As stated above, we generally have the Manager of the area we are walking through on hand to observe and answer any specific questions the auditor may have.

 

Marshall

[MommaJones]

I have effectively banned our Plant Manager from going around on the walk through because he can't keep his mouth shut.

A few years ago during our BRC audit he could not shut up about "look, we have replaced all the zip ties above product areas with metal detectable zip ties".

 

The auditor, whom we have a good relationship with, finally called him out on it and asked to have a representative sample of the zip ties on several lines cut off and run through the metal detectors on those lines.
Thankfully they were all detected and rejected. I pulled him aside as we were walking around and told him to shut up and go back to his office.

As stated above, we generally have the Manager of the area we are walking through on hand to observe and answer any specific questions the auditor may have.

 

Marshall

 

This right here is my biggest fear

[MommaJones]

We are a bit different. Department managers (production, sanitation, maintenance, purchasing, etc) are responsible for the audit. FS/QA will be there at kick off and wrap up and sporadically throughout the 5 days the audit takes. Also responsible for all of the work going into ensuring that the department managers are well prepared for the audit. I look at it as an opportunity for the managers to really brag about what their teams are accomplishing and how they are supporting the food safety culture of facility. This, however, comes with some resistance - but 6 years in and we are still doing it this way. My time with the auditor has become less and less.

This is a really interesting model. But I really like how you've gotten the other departments engaged. That has always been my struggle...getting others to realize they are a part of this too and it's not just Quality

[jkoratich712]

This is a really interesting model. But I really like how you've gotten the other departments engaged. That has always been my struggle...getting others to realize they are a part of this too and it's not just Quality

 

I don't think it would work with out Sr. Management support. The VP of Operations (who is my manager) has given this directive since I was brought on with the company. Plant Managers understand that the audit falls to them and their teams. At times, it is extremely frustrating to not be in control - but it has definitely increased accountability across the departments for maintaining their programs.

[SQFconsultant]

I have effectively banned our Plant Manager from going around on the walk through because he can't keep his mouth shut.

A few years ago during our BRC audit he could not shut up about "look, we have replaced all the zip ties above product areas with metal detectable zip ties".

 

The auditor, whom we have a good relationship with, finally called him out on it and asked to have a representative sample of the zip ties on several lines cut off and run through the metal detectors on those lines.
Thankfully they were all detected and rejected. I pulled him aside as we were walking around and told him to shut up and go back to his office.

As stated above, we generally have the Manager of the area we are walking through on hand to observe and answer any specific questions the auditor may have.

 

Marshall

 

Yes, talkative managers and others can toss an audit real fast.

 

As a former Auditor I know this too well -  there are most certainly stand-outs, like the maintenace manager at a bakery telling me how he eliminates birds - by shooting them with a .22 and as luck would have it one came flying thru that morning and there he went grabbing his gun and blasting away with parts of the bird, blood and guts falling down onto exposed peanut butter cracker mix.

 

Or the multi-gold chained operations manager that insisted on coming on an inspection even though I heard the corporate QAM ask him not too - I would soon find out he was one of the most talkative people, even with a corporate VP present...  He made it a point to say that the reason why no one had hairnets on was because the production manager lost the key to the metal cabinet and that contains the nets, soap for the dispensers (yes, there was no soap in the dispensers.) 

 

Yes, talkatives can easily help a facility to fail an audit.

[TimG]

Or the maintenance manager that was scheduled to be with me/auditor for a total of 10 minutes. As we were walking through the auditor noted excessive bird activity on the roof, then bird poop on a side of the building away from production. When she asked about it the maintenance manager blurted out "yeah and that's where everyone takes their smoke breaks, they like to track bird poop in" and as I tilted my head, knowing I specifically look for tracked in hazards, the auditors asks "Well Tim I've seen your audit, don't you look for that?" And the maintenance manager states in a "we have it covered" voice "Oh yeah, as soon as we see Tim pull up we rush out and mop the area so it doesn't get us a mark on his inspections."

I have a pretty good poker face, but I am sure my mouth was in an O and I was shaking my head slowly from side to side. 

[QA_Spices]

I have done the walkthrough by my self with the auditor, I like to spend some time on the production floor, with the maintenance team and on the sanitation process. That way I know what goes down and how, that way you can somehow take control of the tour and almost be in control of the questions you'll be asked and already have your answer worked out.

 

Of course you're not hiding anything wrong on your plant, you're just almost picking your battles. And agreeing with the other inputs, don't be a talker!

 

Hope it helps! 

[MommaJones]

Or the maintenance manager that was scheduled to be with me/auditor for a total of 10 minutes. As we were walking through the auditor noted excessive bird activity on the roof, then bird poop on a side of the building away from production. When she asked about it the maintenance manager blurted out "yeah and that's where everyone takes their smoke breaks, they like to track bird poop in" and as I tilted my head, knowing I specifically look for tracked in hazards, the auditors asks "Well Tim I've seen your audit, don't you look for that?" And the maintenance manager states in a "we have it covered" voice "Oh yeah, as soon as we see Tim pull up we rush out and mop the area so it doesn't get us a mark on his inspections."

I have a pretty good poker face, but I am sure my mouth was in an O and I was shaking my head slowly from side to side. 

This made me drop my jaw!