8 replies to this topic

[Cherrypie68]

Hi

This maybe a really basisc question but Im getting a bit confused so will ask anyway.....

If cooking of crabs and lobsters is carried out correctly, which is a CCP - is blast chilling also a CCP when any potential microbes wil have been killed during the cooking process?

Any thoughts?

Thanks

[RyH]

Hi Charlotte,

It depends on your HACCP but I would say yes. As a ready to eat food, failure to cool the crab within a certain period (is it still 4 hours?) could result in microbial growth and poses a risk to customer.

Kind regards,

Ry

[Cherrypie68]

I'm getting confused because if the cooking process is correct the pathogens will be killed - there arent any spore formers associted with crabs or lobsters. The whole crabs and lobsters are cooked for 27min at 99-101oC.

Any thoughts?

[Charles.C]

I'm getting confused because if the cooking process is correct the pathogens will be killed - there arent any spore formers associted with crabs or lobsters. The whole crabs and lobsters are cooked for 27min at 99-101oC.

Any thoughts?

Hi charlotte,

 

Yes, sometimes haccp can be confusing because risk assessment is subjective.

 

Ultimately your (validated) haccp plan must be based on your  (risk assessed) Process.

 

Maybe have a re-look through your previous thread on related subject -

 

https://www.ifsqn.co...cp/#entry183919

 

Maybe  study  the numerous crab processing scenarios (eg Pg 209 et seq) analysed within this established seafood "classic" -

 

 SeafoodHazardsGuide-Fish-and-Fishery-Products-Hazards-and-Controls-Guidance-Fourth-Edition-August2019.pdf   4.12MB   7 downloads

[ShaunD]

Hi Charlotte,

 

I have had over 25 years experience in the UK crab and lobster industry as a Technical/Quality Manager, I have never regarded shell as a CCP, always a pre-requisite.

We would "dress" the crab meat, both hand picked claw and blown leg meat, under UV light. This would help identify shell but would not guarantee a shell-free product, which is why tolerances were always built into customer specifications. Shell warnings on labels will help but you will still likely get complaints for shell, even if within specifications.

 

(above comment is related to this thread -

https://www.ifsqn.co...cp/#entry184863

 

 

Cooling would be regarded as a CCP. You mentioned no spore formers associated with crab/lobster, Clostridium can be found in marine environments (see attached), so should always be considered.

 

Hope it helps.  

Attached Files

•  Clostridium_Botulinum-Neurotoxins.pdf   63.47KB   5 downloads

Edited by Charles.C, 21 April 2022 - 08:12 AM.
moved/edited

[Charles.C]

Hi Charlotte,

 

(above comment is related to this thread -

https://www.ifsqn.co...cp/#entry184863

 

 

Cooling would be regarded as a CCP. You mentioned no spore formers associated with crab/lobster, Clostridium can be found in marine environments (see attached), so should always be considered.

 

Hope it helps.  

Hi Shaun,

 

Thanks for input. As you say C.botulinum spores are somewhat ubiquitous.  However afaik C.Botulinum is strictly anaerobic. Accordingly it's significance (if any) will likely relate to the packaging/chilled storage of final product of which the former so far unknown.

 

@Charlotte - in addition to above, the potential microbial process hazard (see my attachments in yr other thread) is cross-contamination/pathogen growth due the complex, extended manipulations post-cooking. The numerous, potential complexities and their control are detailed at considerable  length in the attachment Post 4.

[ShaunD]

Hi Charles,

 

Yes, you are correct, but, as both the crabs and lobsters will generally be cooked whole, in water, prior to processing, C. Botulinum should be considered (lobsters could be halved prior to cooking).

I had a customer insist on certificates of analysis per batch, which had to include Clostridium, crab claws bulk packed into liner within cardboard box.

[Charles.C]

Hi Charles,

 

Yes, you are correct, but, as both the crabs and lobsters will generally be cooked whole, in water, prior to processing, C. Botulinum should be considered (lobsters could be halved prior to cooking).

I had a customer insist on certificates of analysis per batch, which had to include Clostridium, crab claws bulk packed into liner within cardboard box.

Hi Shaun,

 

I presume you mean tested for toxin. Sounds expensive. ROP or MAP packed ?

[ShaunD]

Hi Charles,

 

These were whole claws just bulk packed into liners, where the bag was either tied or simply folded over within a cardboard outer which was then sealed with tape.

The lab we used, at the time, could only test for sulphite reducing Clostridia, can't remember the cost as it was several years ago.

No matter how hard I tried to argue/debate this requirement, the customer insisted (and unfortunately, as the saying goes, the customers' always right).

 

The majority of the hand picked meats we produced, ended up being vacuum packed and then pasteurised, simply to get the required life due it being an extremely labour intensive process.

Edited by ShaunD, 21 April 2022 - 09:51 AM.