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Staalkat

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Posted 30 April 2022 - 11:58 PM

Help, never wrote Root Causes before.

Request help regarding 4 incidents -

 

(1)  Initial Plant SQF Level 3 Certification Audit

 

We did not have signs for our handwash sinks during our audit.

We spaced it (New Facility)

 

How would we write the root cause of oversight?

 

We did get before pictures and after.

We put signs up.

After has :  HAND WASH SINK  and WASH HANDS PRIOR TO RETURNING TO WORK Signs

 

(2) Root Cause - Pre-Op Inspection 

 

During an audit we got a non-conformity when the auditor found a few spots on the outside of the equipment that sanitation missed.

The auditor specifically said he did not want to see - "retrained" as a root cause.

 

This is a new facility with all new employees that have never worked in manufacturing before.

Thank you in advance for any suggestions on how to write the root cause!

We have since added to our staff which resulted in correcting the issue.

 

(3)  Post Audit

 

The auditor found a lubricant in the grease gun in our maintenance room. 

Unfortunately the person that was responsible for ensuring we had all the documentation failed to do so.

How do you write that the SQF Practitioner failed to do their job?

 

Thanks

 

(4)  Root Cause - Writing - Open End Support Pipes

 

We got a non-conformance for overhead structural pipes that are used as supports that were open ended on both ends.

We have since sealed them with foam spray.

We did not know #they existed and #2 they had to be closed ends. (new construction/new facility/new staff)

How would one write the root cause of not knowing on all accounts?

 

Examples appreciated!


Edited by Charles.C, 01 May 2022 - 05:49 AM.
edited/combined


SQFconsultant

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Posted 01 May 2022 - 12:12 AM

Re (1)

 

That's pretty light wording for the signage. Are they in all languages understood and spoken in the facility and also how does a new facility go right to SQF quality within [without?] being in business for a while.?


Edited by Charles.C, 01 May 2022 - 05:54 AM.
[ ] - typo?

All the Best,

 

All Rights Reserved,

Without Prejudice,

Glenn Oster.

Glenn Oster Consulting, LLC -

SQF System Development, Implementation & Certification | eConsultant | Internal Auditor Training

http://www.GCEMVI.XYZ

https://glennoster.website3.me/

 


Charles.C

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Posted 01 May 2022 - 05:30 AM

Hi Staalkat,

 

A lot of queries. :smile:

 

A little info on Specific Auditor NC and Relevant Standard Clause might assist.

 

PS - SQF level 3 no longer exists.


Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


SQFconsultant

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Posted 02 May 2022 - 02:59 AM

Yes charles it was a typo. I truly need an eye appointment, however I am in a physical rehab facility learning how to walk again after a severe accident.

I'll scan my postings better prior to posting.


All the Best,

 

All Rights Reserved,

Without Prejudice,

Glenn Oster.

Glenn Oster Consulting, LLC -

SQF System Development, Implementation & Certification | eConsultant | Internal Auditor Training

http://www.GCEMVI.XYZ

https://glennoster.website3.me/

 


SQFconsultant

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Posted 02 May 2022 - 03:12 AM

I think we could use some more details on company, products produced, what your position is - these kind of things should have popped up during a pre-op, pre-audit inspection or during internal audits.


All the Best,

 

All Rights Reserved,

Without Prejudice,

Glenn Oster.

Glenn Oster Consulting, LLC -

SQF System Development, Implementation & Certification | eConsultant | Internal Auditor Training

http://www.GCEMVI.XYZ

https://glennoster.website3.me/

 


Charles.C

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Posted 02 May 2022 - 03:40 AM

Yes charles it was a typo. I truly need an eye appointment, however I am in a physical rehab facility learning how to walk again after a severe accident.

I'll scan my postings better prior to posting.

Hi SQFC/Glenn,

 

Very sorry about accident.

Typos no biggee since I enjoy editing. :smile:

Hope You Recover Quickly.

Attached File  getwellsoon.jpg   3.76KB   0 downloads


Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


Charles.C

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Posted 02 May 2022 - 11:03 AM

Help, never wrote Root Causes before.

Request help regarding 4 incidents -

 

(1)  Initial Plant SQF Level 3 Certification Audit

 

We did not have signs for our handwash sinks during our audit.

We spaced it (New Facility)

 

How would we write the root cause of oversight?

 

We did get before pictures and after.

We put signs up.

After has :  HAND WASH SINK  and WASH HANDS PRIOR TO RETURNING TO WORK Signs

 

(2) Root Cause - Pre-Op Inspection 

 

During an audit we got a non-conformity when the auditor found a few spots on the outside of the equipment that sanitation missed.

The auditor specifically said he did not want to see - "retrained" as a root cause.

 

This is a new facility with all new employees that have never worked in manufacturing before.

Thank you in advance for any suggestions on how to write the root cause!

We have since added to our staff which resulted in correcting the issue.

 

(3)  Post Audit

 

The auditor found a lubricant in the grease gun in our maintenance room. 

Unfortunately the person that was responsible for ensuring we had all the documentation failed to do so.

How do you write that the SQF Practitioner failed to do their job?

 

Thanks

 

(4)  Root Cause - Writing - Open End Support Pipes

 

We got a non-conformance for overhead structural pipes that are used as supports that were open ended on both ends.

We have since sealed them with foam spray.

We did not know #they existed and #2 they had to be closed ends. (new construction/new facility/new staff)

How would one write the root cause of not knowing on all accounts?

 

Examples appreciated!

Hi Staalkat,

 

I suggest you are going to need to study the basic process(es) for implementing/documenting RCAs. eg -

(a) SQF Guidance document for Ver 9. This has a useful, 6-step generic Procedure.

(b) This link has useful examples and illustrates one popular method, 5 Whys, for implementing an RCA..

https://techni-k.co....cause-analysis/

(SORRY, LINK NOW BROKEN (141022). WILL REPLACE BY PDF IF i CAN LOCATE IT/Charles.C)

 

Note that RCA demands a Solution. (Generically there may be a variety of possibilities for a given deficiency).

 

One "conclusion" of carrying out a "deep dive" as described in previous link(b) "could" be summarised as -

 

Usually, in what is commonly referred to as risk and control reviews, auditors need not spend too much of their valuable time performing a detailed root cause analysis. This is because there is rarely a need to go a step further and answer the question: “Why is there a control gap?” It is enough to recommend designing and implementing control activities wherever they are lacking. Similarly, the same stands for the question: “Why have the controls been poorly designed?” It is enough for auditors to recommend control design improvements to help the organization achieve the control objectives for which the controls were put in place to address.
Finally, root cause analysis does pay off when auditors discover that the well-designed control activity does not operate effectively. When auditors take a deeper look, they often discover that the true issue stems from one (but not limited to [one]) of the following:

  • Human error, despite the satisfactory competence and experience
  • Human error due to the lack of competence, despite the training
  • Human error due to the lack of adequate training
  • Human error due to being overburdened, as there is the lack of staff
  • Lack of appropriate tools/systems
  • Poor process design
  • Poor organization morale/lack of motivation
  • Ability to override controls
  • External factors

It is important to note that auditors should focus on those causes over which management has control and for which meaningful recommendations for improvements can be made. Only then can future risk materializations on the larger scale be effectively prevented.

https://www.isaca.or...ous-audit-types

 

Regarding yr specific queries 1 - 4.

 

(1,3,4)  - the above link(b) and attached files contains a suggested "Procedure/route" but it's specific implementation will depend on your own data.

(2) - The footnote in above link(b) and  following pdf files may explain the auditor's (somewhat questionable IMO) retraining "comment" and offer a possible extension/solution.

Attached File  RCA - training.pdf   245.39KB   100 downloads

Attached File  RCA - training (2).pdf   1.63MB   94 downloads


Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


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Posted 02 May 2022 - 12:18 PM

Is this a brand new business?? or did you move locations?

 

As level 3 no longer exists, was this a PRE audit inspection or an actual certification audit

 

Are you the SQFP?  Have you taken the required training?


Please stop referring to me as Sir/sirs


Gelato Quality Lead

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Posted 02 May 2022 - 11:15 PM

The above comments are super valid questions. I would like to add my suggestion to your second incident about the missed sanitation.

 

The Root Cause Analysis would not mention anything about retraining, that would be your corrective and preventive action. Your RCA can contain what you mentioned, that it is an all-new facility with all-new employees. But your preventive action plan could include having someone inspect and document the inspection after each cleaning to ensure it was done correctly and no spots were missed.

 

I'm curious to know how a brand new business is already aiming for a higher SQF auditing scheme! And are you the practitioner? I believe RCA is covered in the recommended training.



Charles.C

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Posted 02 May 2022 - 11:56 PM

The above comments are super valid questions. I would like to add my suggestion to your second incident about the missed sanitation.

 

The Root Cause Analysis would not mention anything about retraining, that would be your corrective and preventive action. Your RCA can contain what you mentioned, that it is an all-new facility with all-new employees. But your preventive action plan could include having someone inspect and document the inspection after each cleaning to ensure it was done correctly and no spots were missed.

 

I'm curious to know how a brand new business is already aiming for a higher SQF auditing scheme! And are you the practitioner? I believe RCA is covered in the recommended training.

Hi GQS,

 

Thks yr input.

 

I agree yr comment about inspection although the OP may have already included this aspect (?).

 

Re ^^^(red) -  In current context, Corrective Action and Preventive Action are afaik typically interpreted as chronologically  dissimilar quantities. (SQF's handling of these 2 terminologies  in the Code and Glossary seems divergent to ISO, eg -
 

 According to ISO 9001, the differences between Corrective (also known as risk-based thinking) and Preventive actions are:

8.5.2 Corrective Actions: “The organization shall take action to eliminate the causes of nonconformities in order to prevent a recurrence.”

8.5.3 Preventive Actions: “The organization shall determine action to eliminate the causes of potential nonconformities in order to prevent their occurrence.”

In simple terms, corrective action prevents recurrence, while preventive action prevents occurrence. Corrective action is carried out after a nonconformity has already occurred, whereas preventive action is planned with the goal of preventing a nonconformity in its entirety.

https://tulip.co/blo...ventive-action/

 

 

As I understand, the basic purpose of the RCA is to focus/enable a decision as to the required/optimum Preventive Action(s).

 

In present case, IMO, one logical "Why" is regarding the precise reason that new personnel are making mistakes ? (eg the 9 item list in Post 7).

 

I disagree with the implication in the auditor's comment that "training" is not a potentially relevant issue.

 

PS - The inclusion of "human error" as a valid RCA in Post 7 is possibly argumentative ? :smile:


Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


Staalkat

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Posted 03 May 2022 - 01:16 AM

GQS & Charles.C.  You have been most helpful.  The links provided and quotes are appreciated.  

Signed with much gratitude.



Charles.C

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Posted 03 May 2022 - 01:47 AM

GQS & Charles.C.  You have been most helpful.  The links provided and quotes are appreciated.  

Signed with much gratitude.

Hi Staalkat,

 

Thks yr reply.

 

I noticed this link has a large number of downloadable RCA templates of varying formats and applications. May be worth browsing through although I can see the analytical depth in many examples is probably overkill for present situation.

 

https://templatelab....cause-analysis/

 

PS - For BRC, IMEX of Sanitation Inspections, attachment of a final RCA section to a standard Corrective Action form (various examples on this Forum somewhere) has been workable.

 

PPS - although yr auditor might not approve, this simple, but quite elegant, worked example is offered by food.gov.uk -

 

Attached File  root-cause-analysis-best-practice-example-final.pdf   176.91KB   93 downloads

(note that in context of present thread, the final summary might have been better-headed as  "Preventive " rather than "Corrective" Actions).


Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


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