16 replies to this topic

[caroline2771]

Good morning everyone

 

Regarding Costco's new requirements about the XRAY, we currently have metal detectors in our production plant and we are GFSI certified. 

We are not a manufacturer but we repackage bulk products in our own packaging.

 

We went to Xray manufacturers with our products as well as most of the foreign materials that we can find in the bulk products. However, the XRAY detector has failed to detect these foreign materials other than those with metal, which our current metal detector already detects.

the manufacturer explained that since the mass of our product is very large, most foreign matter can never be detected using an XRAY, compared to other manufacturer whom their products' mass is very low.

 

what we want is Costco's approval for the exemption from having an XRAY detector, but certainly the manufacturer of the XRAY will not send us a letter telling us that their own detector does not detect our foreign materials. 

 

What would be the best thing to do since to get the exemption, Costco mentions that we must have a letter  from a subject matter expert confirming that Xray is not applicable.

 

thanks in advance !

[Scampi]

A letter from the x-ray manufacturer re: your specific product and the limitations of the machine in your process---they are after all the subject matter experts and if they say their machine doesn't work for you that should be sufficient

 

 

But I will say the response from them seems illogical to me    Are you not talking about using the x-ray POST repack?  Doing it in the bulk pack you receive doesn't make sense

 

When you talk about "mass" are you referring to density or size?

[Charles.C]

Good morning everyone

 

Regarding Costco's new requirements about the XRAY, we currently have metal detectors in our production plant and we are GFSI certified. 

We are not a manufacturer but we repackage bulk products in our own packaging.

 

We went to Xray manufacturers with our products as well as most of the foreign materials that we can find in the bulk products. However, the XRAY detector has failed to detect these foreign materials other than those with metal, which our current metal detector already detects.

the manufacturer explained that since the mass of our product is very large, most foreign matter can never be detected using an XRAY, compared to other manufacturer whom their products' mass is very low.

 

what we want is Costco's approval for the exemption from having an XRAY detector, but certainly the manufacturer of the XRAY will not send us a letter telling us that their own detector does not detect our foreign materials. 

 

What would be the best thing to do since to get the exemption, Costco mentions that we must have a letter  from a subject matter expert confirming that Xray is not applicable.

 

thanks in advance !

Hi Caroline,

 

Probably need to know some details eg, material type, size/mass, etc  as suggested by Post 2.

 

I anticipate that Costco will need to know precisely why available X-ray equipment cannot detect FM in yr System.

 

Re-^^^(red) - I think they should be able to tell you what their System will detect ?

 

Sensitivities of X-ray systems are discussed in this post/thread -

 

https://www.ifsqn.co...od/#entry161708

(esp. note the sub-link in Post 4 from an expert)

 

These items also looked of some interest -

 

 Best Practices X-Ray Systems.png   1.14MB   8 downloads

 How_to_Select_Critical_Control_Points_for_X-ray_Systems.pdf   161.25KB   36 downloads

 Detectable Products in Metal and X-Ray Systems.pdf   1.09MB   43 downloads

 

https://qualityassur...technology-q-a/

[caroline2771]

Hi Caroline,

 

Probably need to know some details eg, material type, size/mass, etc  as suggested by Post 2.

 

I anticipate that Costco will need to know precisely why available X-ray equipment cannot detect FM in yr System.

 

Re-^^^(red) - I think they should be able to tell you what their System will detect ?

 

Sensitivities of X-ray systems are discussed in this post/thread -

 

https://www.ifsqn.co...od/#entry161708

(esp. note the sub-link in Post 4 from an expert)

 

These items also looked of some interest -

 

Best Practices X-Ray Systems.png

How_to_Select_Critical_Control_Points_for_X-ray_Systems.pdf

Detectable Products in Metal and X-Ray Systems.pdf

 

https://qualityassur...technology-q-a/

 

Good morning, 

 

Thank you Scampi and Charles C, you are always answering all subjects in here and it's really appreciated, this forum is my bible 

 

to answer your questions, we do not pass the bulk products in the XRAY. We receive the bulk products, then repack them in our own packaging and these are the one we would pass through the XRAY (our finished product). 

 

About the mass, i'm talking about density. We repack candy (soft candy). We repack it in smaller sizes such as 1 kg bag.

I assume you are right, I could ask the XRAY manufacturer to write us a letter confirming what they CAN detect such as the minimal size detection compared to the mass of the product

 

I will now read the different links you just sent 

 

thanks all!

[Scampi]

https://www.sesotec....b/confectionery

https://www.wateronl...chocolates-0001

 

It may be that the particular manufacturer you were talking with is not the right one for your application---the above links specifically mention soft candy

 

A 1 kg bag of individually wrapped pieces seems like an almost ideal candidate for x-ray IMHO

[caroline2771]

Thank you!

 

That will certainly help

 

https://www.sesotec....b/confectionery

https://www.wateronl...chocolates-0001

 

It may be that the particular manufacturer you were talking with is not the right one for your application---the above links specifically mention soft candy

 

A 1 kg bag of individually wrapped pieces seems like an almost ideal candidate for x-ray IMHO

[G M]

... in our own packaging and these are the one we would pass through the XRAY (our finished product). 

 

... We repack candy (soft candy). We repack it in smaller sizes such as 1 kg bag.

...

 

I would not expect that to be outside the capabilities of standard xray equipment.  Not unless you set the exclusion target very small, or low density.

 

While the Costco expectation is Xray, I don't think I've seen them set any limits on the foreign material density or size.

 

 

ETA:  Expanding on that, what kind of dense FM have you previously detected in your finished goods?  General size and material.  How frequently?

Edited by G M, 26 April 2023 - 09:02 PM.

[Charles.C]

https://www.sesotec....b/confectionery

https://www.wateronl...chocolates-0001

 

It may be that the particular manufacturer you were talking with is not the right one for your application---the above links specifically mention soft candy

 

A 1 kg bag of individually wrapped pieces seems like an almost ideal candidate for x-ray IMHO

Hi Scampi,

I tried 2x to download the 1st link's info. brochure on X-ray, got a pretty green spinning wheel. to watch for a while. Another supplier said an email link was on the way, Maybe via the N.Pole.

 

@Caroline  seems the manufacturers you approached either misunderstood yr requirements or were totally unfamiliar with their own equipment.

 

Based on the posts in the parallel "Grumbles" whinging thread here which appears focused on Costco, I hope the (unknown?) volume of business justifies the likely massive $ outlay.

[Scampi]

 

 

Based on the posts in the parallel "Grumbles" whinging thread here which appears focused on Costco, I hope the (unknown?) volume of business justifies the likely massive $ outlay.

Not sure what happened to the links Charles-they worked for me

 

As for Costco---that remains to be seen----they will not accept you as a vendor if they make up more that ~10% of your total sales--so the ROI may be considerable for some businesses selling to them

[caroline2771]

I would not expect that to be outside the capabilities of standard xray equipment.  Not unless you set the exclusion target very small, or low density.

 

While the Costco expectation is Xray, I don't think I've seen them set any limits on the foreign material density or size.

 

 

ETA:  Expanding on that, what kind of dense FM have you previously detected in your finished goods?  General size and material.  How frequently?

 

normally what we detect (except metal) are FM that we see visually in bulk bags, or that we do not see and the consumer finds in his bag. The FM that we find most often are pieces of wood, plastic thread (such as a brush hair used for cleaning), large pieces of dried starch stuck on the candy (and some customers complain about this).

Most of the time, these FM are embedded in the candy but are still very apparent. The size varies but we have already found large pieces of plastic and the XRAY we tried detected absolutely none of this (not even the big pieces of plastic).

So I would say that the size really varies from the type of material to another, and the frequency is not so high (for consumer complaints it may be one complaint per month), and for what we are able to visually capture here I would say 1 time per week.

[Charles.C]

Not sure what happened to the links Charles-they worked for me

The link provided worked fine but not the site's internal link.

[Charles.C]

normally what we detect (except metal) are FM that we see visually in bulk bags, or that we do not see and the consumer finds in his bag. The FM that we find most often are pieces of wood, plastic thread (such as a brush hair used for cleaning), large pieces of dried starch stuck on the candy (and some customers complain about this).

Most of the time, these FM are embedded in the candy but are still very apparent. The size varies but we have already found large pieces of plastic and the XRAY we tried detected absolutely none of this (not even the big pieces of plastic).

So I would say that the size really varies from the type of material to another, and the frequency is not so high (for consumer complaints it may be one complaint per month), and for what we are able to visually capture here I would say 1 time per week.

Hi Caroline,

 

Thanks your useful input.

Sadly, yr comments probably (sort of) reflect the pictorial info. in sublink of my Post 3 (Some [relatively] "optimistic" comments therein are perhaps also equipment/cost related)

 

To re-iterate -

 

Materials That X-Ray Inspection Systems Can’t Detect

X-ray technology is excellent for finding foreign bodies like heavy metal contaminants and other dense materials, but low-density materials are harder to detect. Examples of contaminants that x-ray systems struggle to find are:

• Light metals such as aluminum
• Wood fragments
• Thin plastics
• Human hair

 X-ray Detection Capabilities.pdf   3.37MB   21 downloads

 

There is maybe possible assistance regarding certain of the "difficult" contaminants, eg -

 

https://www.eaglepi....lastic-in-food/

 Can X-Ray inspection detect plastic in food.pdf   286.15KB   18 downloads

Edited by Charles.C, 02 May 2023 - 03:04 AM.
added

[caroline2771]

Thank you Charles

 

I will look at that with my team,

 

 

Hi Caroline,

 

Thanks your useful input.

Sadly, yr comments probably (sort of) reflect the pictorial info. in sublink of my Post 3 (Some [relatively] "optimistic" comments therein are perhaps also equipment/cost related)

 

To re-iterate -

 

 

There is maybe possible assistance regarding certain of the "difficult" contaminants, eg -

 

https://www.eaglepi....lastic-in-food/

Can X-Ray inspection detect plastic in food.pdf

[G M]

Ah, I see.  Most of what you're looking for then would be under 1g/cc.  That's probably very close to, or less than, the density of your product. 

 

I would expect an xray equipment vendor to be willing to write up a letter stating the needed technical reasoning for your exclusion.  

[Charles.C]

Hi Caroline,

 

 I did a little more digging in your cause and these "Company" attachments are the nearest I could find to a (maybe) claimed solution to yr plastic problem -

 

 X-ray detection with respect to SQF requirements.pdf   2.66MB   26 downloads

 X-ray detection inc. PVC, Teflon, rubber.pdf   270.42KB   19 downloads

 X-Ray Dual Energy Detector.pdf   2.34MB   14 downloads

 

Hopefully the claims might be verifiable on yr System.

 

[caroline2771]

Thanks a lot ! 

Seems to be just what we need !

Will have my maintenance team look into that :)

 

 

Hi Caroline,

 

 I did a little more digging in your cause and these "Company" attachments are the nearest I could find to a (maybe) claimed solution to yr plastic problem -

 

X-ray detection with respect to SQF requirements.pdf

X-ray detection inc. PVC, Teflon, rubber.pdf

X-Ray Dual Energy Detector.pdf

 

Hopefully the claims might be verifiable on yr System.

[tahoeskier]

Show your risk assessments to the auditor doing the Costco addendum.