15 replies to this topic

[Miss Frankie]

What happens if a company does not have a back up practitioner?

I was the main SQF Practitioner at my last company and I had a backup.  I left in May, by backup became the main practitioner.
There audit is coming in a couple weeks, and they don't have a back-up yet. They've had plenty of time to have someone take the course, but of course they leave everything to the last minute, then panic.

 

When I left my first company (after almost 37 years) a couple months before their SQF audit,  I told my backup not to change the org chart or anything until after the audit and tell the auditor that I was on vacation. I THINK the GM managed to take the course before the audit.

 

 

[Setanta]

If noticed, it will probably be a minor, unless there was a previous minor for not having a back-up.

I admire you for being concerned about your former employer, that's dedication!

[G M]

What happens if a company does not have a back up practitioner?
...

 

They would receive a non-conformace under 2.1.1.4 for management responsibility.  Probably a minor.

 

• 2.1.1.4 Senior site management shall designate a primary and substitute SQF practitioner for each site with responsibility and authority to:

 

 

All they need to do is name someone to avoid that.  The next section would then trigger the same problem if this alternate hasn't had any training.  

 

• 2.1.1.5 The primary and substitute SQF practitioner shall:
• iii. Have completed a HACCP training course;

 

A relatively simple two-day HACCP training course online would get them through that.  The other points under that section are worded to allow some interpretation regarding competency.

[Miss Frankie]

They would receive a non-conformace under 2.1.1.4 for management responsibility.  Probably a minor.

 

• 2.1.1.4 Senior site management shall designate a primary and substitute SQF practitioner for each site with responsibility and authority to:

 

 

All they need to do is name someone to avoid that.  The next section would then trigger the same problem if this alternate hasn't had any training.  

 

• 2.1.1.5 The primary and substitute SQF practitioner shall:
• iii. Have completed a HACCP training course;

 

A relatively simple two-day HACCP training course online would get them through that.  The other points under that section are worded to allow some interpretation regarding competency.

 

So they don't have to take the SQF course?  I had to take it TWICE!  (sat thru it once with my former boss, then when he disappeared, I had to take it again and take the tests.)

 

They have plenty of people that are HACCP certified.

[Sheilag]

We got a minor on our last SQF audit for this clause.  Had 1 of my techs do the HACCP on line training 9 hour course through AIB.  That was sufficient for CA.  Also added to my SQF responsibilities to ensure a back up was on site.  

[kingstudruler1]

So they don't have to take the SQF course?  I had to take it TWICE!  (sat thru it once with my former boss, then when he disappeared, I had to take it again and take the tests.)

 

They have plenty of people that are HACCP certified.

 Even in version 8 the course was not compulsory.  It does make proving the "understanding" much easier.  Also, it would be pretty foolish to put someone in that position with almost no knowledge of food safety systems and / or the SQF standard.  

[SQFconsultant]

In the beginning g there was a requirement to take the SQF Practitioner training and this went on for a little while  ut the requirement was removed.

 

It's a real sticky wicket item when a lie is told to an Auditor. Most Auditors I know don't take too kindly with facility personnel attempting to snow them and it may get passed over once but never again.

 

With that out of the way the backup really only needs two things and that is haccp certificate of training and a knowledge of the SQF program - that second part has been the undoing of a number of backups that I personally have interfaced with as both an SQF auditor and consultant.

 

While I agree with others that it may be a minor as to grading I would add that it can quickly add on other minors and the question if the company is going to screw up on this rather important item how many other minors are they going to get hit with?

 

My bet is a lot especially if they are now in panic mode.

 

Once a screw up is made on the front end of the audit and especially with the basic everything else that follows will most likely be downhill and customers that actually check on their suppliers grade/score are rarely impressed when a supplier falls down on simple things like this.

 

I'd be scrambling to put a haccp certified employee in, change the org chart if needed and give the SQF system to this person to study 16/7 - as one client did.

[Miss Frankie]

In the beginning g there was a requirement to take the SQF Practitioner training and this went on for a little while  ut the requirement was removed.

 

It's a real sticky wicket item when a lie is told to an Auditor. Most Auditors I know don't take too kindly with facility personnel attempting to snow them and it may get passed over once but never again.

 

With that out of the way the backup really only needs two things and that is haccp certificate of training and a knowledge of the SQF program - that second part has been the undoing of a number of backups that I personally have interfaced with as both an SQF auditor and consultant.

 

While I agree with others that it may be a minor as to grading I would add that it can quickly add on other minors and the question if the company is going to screw up on this rather important item how many other minors are they going to get hit with?

 

My bet is a lot especially if they are now in panic mode.

 

Once a screw up is made on the front end of the audit and especially with the basic everything else that follows will most likely be downhill and customers that actually check on their suppliers grade/score are rarely impressed when a supplier falls down on simple things like this.

 

I'd be scrambling to put a haccp certified employee in, change the org chart if needed and give the SQF system to this person to study 16/7 - as one client did.

 

I don't know how, but the last 3 years, this company hasn't scored lower than 98 on a SQF audit.  (They SHOULDN'T!!!) 

Also, I don't know how it's happening, but they haven't had an unannounced audit in at least 3 years.  The one before I started (2021) was planned, as the one I lead in 2022, now this year is planned.
I asked about 2020 and was told it was planned due to COVID. 

[Scampi]

@missfrankie

There were no unannounced audits for 1 year due to covid (depending on your CB)  up here in the great white north, alot of audits were also fully remote, really hard to do that unannounced

 

and pssssssssssst    the company you've left is now not your problem and covering for them by lying isn't a very good model for the person hired to perform your former duties   Companies have to sign a management commitment for a reason---------they are the ones on the hook to replace you and provide a back up, and if they have been certified for more than a year, they should know exactly what is required

[Scotty_SQF]

I hear you...there is a company I worked for that is scoring high in SQF audits since I left, and there is no way.  I guess cause I was always truthful and who they have now isn't.  I have heard someone they had as the Practitioner there on audit days had someone on standby on their cellphone so they could ask them questions or have them make documents on the fly. 

 

All of this just makes me wonder if it is really worth doing GFSI anymore as I have heard of instances where companies put on a big smoke and mirror show and get good scores.  Isn't the whole audit scheme and way the audits are conducted supposed to catch these companies?  Makes you lose a little faith in the process.

I have never 'put on a show' and have always been truthful as it isn't worth risking a potential issue down the line.  

[Setanta]

I hear you...there is a company I worked for that is scoring high in SQF audits since I left, and there is no way.  I guess cause I was always truthful and who they have now isn't.  I have heard someone they had as the Practitioner there on audit days had someone on standby on their cellphone so they could ask them questions or have them make documents on the fly. 
 
All of this just makes me wonder if it is really worth doing GFSI anymore as I have heard of instances where companies put on a big smoke and mirror show and get good scores.  Isn't the whole audit scheme and way the audits are conducted supposed to catch these companies?  Makes you lose a little faith in the process.
I have never 'put on a show' and have always been truthful as it isn't worth risking a potential issue down the line.

I never did like the word they use in association with SQF 'scheme'

[Miss Frankie]

@missfrankie

There were no unannounced audits for 1 year due to covid (depending on your CB)  up here in the great white north, alot of audits were also fully remote, really hard to do that unannounced

 

and pssssssssssst    the company you've left is now not your problem and covering for them by lying isn't a very good model for the person hired to perform your former duties   Companies have to sign a management commitment for a reason---------they are the ones on the hook to replace you and provide a back up, and if they have been certified for more than a year, they should know exactly what is required

 

I know, but I did make a few friends that, one being my backup.  They didn't, and aren't going to hire a replacement (they are struggling and aren't replacing anyone)  My backup will occasionally text me with questions.

I don't care if this company succeeds or not, but I don't want my friend to fail.

This company is ran by a CRAZY president. - In the time (1.5yrs) I was there, they went thru 4 HR managers, currently don't have one.  There are 8-10 people that work in the main office. Before I left, only 1 person had been there longer than me.  He's at about 3 years and looking to leave.
The president fired our best salesman because he didn't answer a phone call when his 5 yr old daughter was in the hospital and he told them he'd be out for a week but available by email. (He COULD/SHOULD have sued, but he's happy to be out)

[jfrey123]

I hear you...there is a company I worked for that is scoring high in SQF audits since I left, and there is no way.  I guess cause I was always truthful and who they have now isn't.  I have heard someone they had as the Practitioner there on audit days had someone on standby on their cellphone so they could ask them questions or have them make documents on the fly. 

 

All of this just makes me wonder if it is really worth doing GFSI anymore as I have heard of instances where companies put on a big smoke and mirror show and get good scores.  Isn't the whole audit scheme and way the audits are conducted supposed to catch these companies?  Makes you lose a little faith in the process.

I have never 'put on a show' and have always been truthful as it isn't worth risking a potential issue down the line.  

 

I think we recently had a whole thread talking about our complaints on the GFSI issue.  When I got involved in food safety and learned about GFSI about 12 years ago, it was all designed to be the end all be all for all other audits.  Unfortunately, they've gone through various gap reviews, and it feels like we are in a more audit intensive atmosphere than ever before (and I'll apologize to members who have considerably more experience in the field if I'm completely off base here).  It's not sufficient for me to show my suppliers are GFSI certified, we have to have a risk assessment in our files that tells us how much extra scrutiny we need to apply to each vendor based on what they supply to me.  If GFSI was truly bulletproof, a supplier should only need to show me they're GFSI certified and we should be able to trust that cert and move forward with business.

 

Alas, back to the topic on hand:  Not having a backup SQF practitioner is a minor finding.  As others have stated, you don't need a dedicated SQF training for the alternate, just sufficient training on programs to demonstrate they are knowledgeable of SQF code and company programs.  Ideally that comes with a couple years of experience in food safety, throw a HACCP certification on top, and I'd argue with any auditor that is plenty sufficient for a SQF backup.  If you want to be 100% thorough, make sure the job description for your backup or even your org chart declares they have authority to make decisions in the absence of the SQF practitioner.

Edited by jfrey123, 28 August 2023 - 06:42 PM.

[Scampi]

.  They didn't, and aren't going to hire a replacement (they are struggling and aren't replacing anyone)  

This company is ran by a CRAZY president. -

then they should fail

 

Guide your friend to be honest (and find another job) to protect her reputation

[PQAManager]

If you have so many people HACCP trained get them to read all the SQF 9.0 Book, then reread section 2 and 11 as many times as they can.  I reread the code at least 4 times a year parts 2 and 11.  That's all you need to be a Practitioner, back up Practitioner.  The training is nice when you can get it, but it only enhanced my understanding since I had read the code 8 times the whole manual before I got to take the Practitioner class.  Knowing the SQF code of your company too.  They will need to read through all the procedures and programs...to know how the SQF code is applied to their business. 

[TylerJones]

I had to get creative with a simliar situation. I was brought on to be the SQF Practitioner and build all SQF requirements at my current job. I went on IFSQN and bought a couple of online HACCP courses for our food safety team. I then designated all of them as SQF Practitioner alternates. In the training for SQF Practtioner / Alternate is wrote out that they must be present for the entire 2023 SQF Audit and sucssefully pass the audit. I used this years offical audit as a training exercise. The entire team received hands on training via a live audit. Also gave me buy in from the team on we have to do things a certain way. Worked great.