11 replies to this topic

[MMQA]

Hi, I have searched through the forums and have not found info for my specific question. I am no expert in X rays so any feedback is appreciated.

 

I have seen some live demonstrations for X rays using our products (baked goods) and had conversations with the manufacturers and as far as I have been told, besides metal, they would only be able to detect depending on density. So the X ray would detect ceramic, porcelain, glass and calcified bone (which our facility does not have any historical issues with and we do not identify these materials as risks). The issues we do tend to have like, O rings, plastic, wood cannot be detected. In addition, I was told that the metal detectable supplies we use (pens, O rings, band aids) would also not be detected by the X ray.

 

So, based on my conversations with X Ray people, if we were to replace metal detectors with X rays, we would be worse off because it wouldn't matter if we are using metal detectable stuff. It may be that the reps for the X rays did not give me the correct information, or, it may be that I have to keep my metal detectors and add x rays (which due to space and $ would be difficult according to the operations team). I also gave the reps some of my rejected product with our most common metal finding and the x ray was incapable of detecting it. 

 

So at the end of the day I wonder, what is the goal of costco for requiring X rays?, what are the specific complaints they are getting and the specific risks they are trying to minimize? I have asked and no one seems to have been able to answer this question. I am thinking of asking them directly but wonder if anyone already has.

 

I feel it is important to know the specific goals and risks compared to just being told we have to do it. 

[G M]

... if we were to replace metal detectors with X rays, we would be worse off ...

 

 

If your most common FM issues would become undetectable by switching to Xray that sounds like a pretty good basis for an exemption.  I would recommend getting in contact with your Costco representative to explain this, they're not unreasonable, and have made some exceptions for us and others on the implementation of foreign material inspection.

 

If you have a frequent verification check and a well validated system that cannot be meaningfully improved with a conversion they'll probably accept your proposal to stay with what you have.

[SHQuality]

So at the end of the day I wonder, what is the goal of costco for requiring X rays?, what are the specific complaints they are getting and the specific risks they are trying to minimize? I have asked and no one seems to have been able to answer this question. I am thinking of asking them directly but wonder if anyone already has.

 

I feel it is important to know the specific goals and risks compared to just being told we have to do it. 

 

 

 

You didn't specify what products you make, but if Costco is anything like other companies I've worked with, they probably want you to implement X-ray detection because they consider ceramic, porcelain, and especially glass to be serious risks in their risk assessment. The risk of glass as a foreign body is one of the most common reasons to use X-ray detection.

 

I wonder why you don't consider glass a risk in your process.

[TylerJones]

Run your XRAY machine upstream from your MD. Use both. We did that in a rice mill and it worked great. With Costco you always PAY TO PLAY........

[Scampi]

Perhaps Costco needs to focus more on pathogen and allergen contamination...........

https://www.costco.com/recalls.html

 

Costco is notoriously difficult to deal with----------at some point suppliers will just walk away as the ROI isn't there

[SHQuality]

Perhaps Costco needs to focus more on pathogen and allergen contamination...........

https://www.costco.com/recalls.html

That is a seriously long list of recalls.

I'm surprised Costco is still certified if they can't keep such risks under control so it doesn't get to a recall.

[MMQA]

You didn't specify what products you make, but if Costco is anything like other companies I've worked with, they probably want you to implement X-ray detection because they consider ceramic, porcelain, and especially glass to be serious risks in their risk assessment. The risk of glass as a foreign body is one of the most common reasons to use X-ray detection.

 

I wonder why you don't consider glass a risk in your process.

 

sorry I though I included it in my post, we make baked goods

[MDaleDDF]

Perhaps Costco needs to focus more on pathogen and allergen contamination...........

https://www.costco.com/recalls.html

 

Costco is notoriously difficult to deal with----------at some point suppliers will just walk away as the ROI isn't there

It seems many of the big name companies are similar.   We did a cutting for a very big name in, uh, 'child entertainment'.   I won't name them, because they're notorious for going after anyone for anything with lawyers up the yang.    But they basically came right out and told us 'we want this product pretty much at cost, because you'll make money off other people just by them knowing you do business with us.' 

 

We laughed the whole ride home.

I wouldn't even take a meeting with cosco after what I've read about them on here.   We look for more of a team feeling in our relationships.  Any company that wants to talk down to anyone here, boss around anyone here, etc, can sod off.  The world has changed, nobody has to put up with that kind of behavior any longer.

[Scampi]

That is a seriously long list of recalls.

I'm surprised Costco is still certified if they can't keep such risks under control so it doesn't get to a recall.

Exactly----all of the new requirements are because they CHOOSE to do business with people who can't/won't take the steps needed to manage their process' (a mattress recall of all the bloody things)

Costco will drop their vendors like a hot potato if they make up more than 12% (ish) of your total sales, but ask for all kinds of unnecessary , unjustified sweeping changes to keep selling to them 

 

I won't and don't spend my $$$ at Costco either--horrendous recall record

 

If all the suppliers STOP selling to Costco, they will HAVE to negotiate their terms ---but I know my employer will never take that step 

[olenazh]

We're soon moving to a new establishment, and will have X-ray there - only because of Costco requirement. We make only 1 product for Costco, but the orders are huge, that's why the company owners would never stop business with Costco, even taking into account all troubles (e.g., unannounced audit) and expenses (e.g., ex-ray) they have due to these guys. My guess: the company owners follow a paradigm suggesting not to put all eggs into one basket:) 

[Mulan1010]

I agree with G M suggestion, contact Costco.  Our Company's food safety leader did and was told that if we have an expert determine that metal detection is a better fit for our operation than x-ray and would provide a supportable statement, then they would accept that.  The expert could be from the metal detector company of the metal detectors we currently use.  

[Eric G]

As someone who has been working around product inspection for almost two decades, i think this X-Ray requirement may not work out so good in the long run.   This same approach was taken by a bakery customer roughly 10 years ago.  They removed all their metal detectors and put X-ray in their place.  It wasn't long before some scary metal contaminants were getting out to customer all over the place and the decision was swiftly reversed.  At least in this case, they created their own problem and put themselves at risk.  It was not imposed on them by a retailer, or wholesaler. 

 

Fundamentally Metal Detectors and X-Ray inspection are not replacement technologies.  In mostly all applications they will complement each other and a metal detector should always be the first line of defence unless the product renders the metal detector incapable of detecting reasonably sized contaminants. (i.e. foil packaging, tin cans, metal clips etc) Metal detectors are more reliable, safer to work around and if your main hazard is metal then you need to have one in place. It will catch more metal overall.  X-ray should be a bonus when it comes to product inspection, you will catch more contaminants with both. However, it is much easier to have a metal detector as a CCP vs an X-ray that requires more specialised support and has components that have finite lifespans. 

 

Let's take a moment to talk about test contaminants.  Metal detectors performance is based on using spherical contaminants as they eliminate orientation effect.  X-ray systems use spheres because we are comparing the two technologies.  Now, take that spherical contaminant and flatten it out - What you'll find, is that it gets harder to detect with X-ray (thinner and less material to absorb X-rays), while the metal detector will detect the contaminant easier as it will create a larger disturbance in the electromagnetic field. 

 

Honestly, I don't think that Costco wants you to take out your metal detectors. However, this is truly not clear in their directive, unfortunately.  I would say that MMQA has a pretty good basis to push back on the requirement, as there is proof that the metal detector is better at detecting the hazards present.   

 

I hope this helps. 

Eric