10 replies to this topic

[a.cola]

Hi all,

Just to give some background, I am in charge of technical at a poultry processing plant. We make raw marinated poultry products this is carried out via vacuum tumbling with all ingredients.

When tumbling is carried out chicken is loaded into the tumbler along with the other ingredients (Water, Seasoning etc) and once tumbling is finished the chicken is decanted from the tumbler into 200L eurobins. After every mix there is always chicken left in the tumbler that we are unable to retrieve manually. The only way to retrieve this chicken is by putting a few buckets of water (Potable water of course) into the tumbler and to carry out a few tumble cycles. The chicken will then come out of the tumbler and be drained off before adding to the original batch.

The issues I have with this:

- If the product is seasoned, potentially could be a quality issue as once the batch of chicken is bagged you may get variances in colour / taste between different bag

 

- Potential shelf life issues which obviously can be validated through the normal shelf life processes we have

- Is the water classed as a processing aid, even though it is an ingredient in the product? Does anything need to be declared?

- From a food safety / quality standpoint is this viable? Would an auditor see an issue with this if shelf life validation was carried out on a test batch with this process carried out. Would the label still be correct?

It will save the company over £20k a year, so I want to really explore all options before i say they can or cannot do this

Any comments would be much appreciated, happy to provide more info if needed

[KTD]

Hi a.cola -

 

- assuming that the drained liquid also takes the remaining marinade with it, then you have potentially changed the marination %, which could affect your label

- in the US, a processing aid is intended to be incorporated into the product, so drained liquid would not be considered a processing aid

- if you are processsing multiple batches of the same formulation, just add the new batch onto what remains (if ingreds & WIP is scaled before addition)

- have you determined how much water remains in the tumbler after this activity to affect the next batch?

 

KTD

Edited by KTD, 05 January 2024 - 02:40 PM.

[Dorothy87]

Hi :) 

 

I hope you did consider allergens, if not this will be the biggest issue here - cross-contamination. Then quality and finally BRC cleaning validation between batches. I I wouldn't be worrying that much here about shelf life as this can be easily done by lab (due to water content). This process might as well affect your nutrition process (again cross-contamination). Rapid allergens swabs verification will help with daily production but the validation with lab is a must (BRC)

 

:)

[a.cola]

Hi a.cola -

 

- assuming that the drained liquid also takes the remaining marinade with it, then you have potentially changed the marination %, which could affect your label

- in the US, a processing aid is intended to be incorporated into the product, so drained liquid would not be considered a processing aid

- if you are processsing multiple batches of the same formulation, just add the new batch onto what remains (if ingreds & WIP is scaled before addition)

- have you determined how much water remains in the tumbler after this activity to affect the next batch?

 

KTD

 

Hi KTD,

Many thanks for your reply. We do process multiple batches of the same formulation but no more than 2 or 3 daily and sometimes not at all till the next production day. The water left in the tumbler will be fully drained out prior to moving to the next product.

[a.cola]

Hi :) 

 

I hope you did consider allergens, if not this will be the biggest issue here - cross-contamination. Then quality and finally BRC cleaning validation between batches. I I wouldn't be worrying that much here about shelf life as this can be easily done by lab (due to water content). This process might as well affect your nutrition process (again cross-contamination). Rapid allergens swabs verification will help with daily production but the validation with lab is a must (BRC)

 

:)

 

Hi Dorothy, many thanks for your reply. Yes, allergens all considered! We have removed nearly all allergens from the production facility and we carry out quantitative validation with the lab as well as rapid testing swabs. Sorry I probably should have mentioned in original post!

[Scampi]

A)  you need to ensure that you've not exceeded the water retention as allowed on the water tumbled pieces as you may have to discard them regardless

 

 

B) you WILL affect quality, as those pieces will not cook the same

 

 

C) why not invest in a stainless steel hook to retrieve those pieces from the tumbler?  Seems to me the most obvious and least expensive option?????

[G M]

I'm with Scampi here, why wouldn't a simple stainless rake or hook be able to retrieve the marinated pieces?  I'm picturing a brine/marinade sticky enough that they cling to the interior of the tumbler, and won't pour out with the rest?

 

We've used crushed ice to flush out mixing or grinding equipment, but that was just to avoid lengthy disassembly procedures between products that required minimal changeover cleaning.  The outlet was monitored closely, and at the first sign of ice the meat/ice slurry was rejected to inedible.

[a.cola]

A)  you need to ensure that you've not exceeded the water retention as allowed on the water tumbled pieces as you may have to discard them regardless

 

 

B) you WILL affect quality, as those pieces will not cook the same

 

 

C) why not invest in a stainless steel hook to retrieve those pieces from the tumbler?  Seems to me the most obvious and least expensive option?????

Hi Scampi,

Thanks for your reply. Agree with points A & B. With regards to point C, we already have stainless steel retrieving tools, but we are unable to retrieve all of it. We can do up to 20 mixes a day in tumblers that hold 300 - 1500L, so they are very deep. Our tumblers also have curved paddles not straight ones, so it is very difficult for us to retrieve chicken from behind these paddles. Also consider, that the products were are mixing are sliced to 10mm of thickness (Breast and Thigh), so we're talking about very small peices. We could be losing anywhere between 0.2 - 1.5kg of chicken per batch, potentially 40kg a day on just cleandowns and product changeovers. Do you or G M see any issue with KTD's suggestion and reintroducing the product into the next batch of product? I tend to think that's the only viable option if we were to use retrieved material.

Thanks

[KTD]

a.cola

 

Please understand that my comment about including the remainder in the next batch is based on either: 1) identical formulation, or 2) close enough formulation in terms of same or fewer ingredients at approximately the same percentage to avoid labeling issues, and of course, no allergen conflicts. This would at least reduce the number of cleanouts you're doing. Scheduling of batches based on formulation might also be helpful to reduce the number of rinseouts.

 

Adding the rinsed/drained WIP to your next batch also involves your labeling - 'marinated with 8% of X' is different from 'marinated with up to 8% of X'.

 

KTD

[G M]

...any issue with KTD's suggestion and reintroducing the product into the next batch of product? ...

 

Are these tumblers loaded by vacuum as well?  If it's anything like our vacuum loaded tumblers you're already incorporating a small percentage of the previous batch because you never 100% clear the line filling it, without doing a breakdown of the equipment.  On top of that you're carrying over brine from the previous batch already, so a kilo or two of meat won't change the situation.

 

If you ever have a recall/traceability situation, those tumbles are already linked because its not washed between batches.  You are presumably performing complete washes daily, and between flavors as appropriate for GMPs & sanitation.

 

I would stop bothering with trying to flush that fraction of a percent of 'solids' between batches.  Just consider it tankage/retention and move on.

[Scampi]

Any good reason you can't dump the tumbler at the end of the batch over a tray with a SS screen on top?  You'd retrieve all the pieces and loose all the other ingredients