58 replies to this topic

[GMO]

I have my theories which I'll share further down.  But I'm not sure if anyone else is in the same boat but where are the Technical people?  The Process staff?  The guys with a bit of experience?  

I've never known recruitment to be so hard as it has been recently.  It feels like in the UK we are just circulating the same people around the industry.  One competitor even went to my company claiming we'd "deliberately poached a member of staff" (we hadn't but it must have felt like it.)

My theories are:

 

• Job cuts around 2008 crash meant some people went into different functions or industries all together so we lost some people with a few years experience.
• Brexit meant a lot of our QAs, QA Team Leaders who were working their way up to QA Managers returned to home EU countries.
• Covid meant many people in their 50s worked through the pandemic, or didn't and realised it wasn't worth putting their life at risk and retired.
• I've heard (but not sure if I agree) that there was a spate of retailer "bad audit" incidents where Technical people were made into scapegoats for factory failings.  (I'm not sure I agree but the rumours seem persistent that it was pretty common in the late noughties.)
• Then there's that bit that somehow the fun got squeezed out somewhere?  The people I work alongside are the same, great people.  We were in the pub the other night crying with laughter.  But at work?  No.  Not any more and that was never how it used to be.  Factory work used to be having at least one absolutely howling with laughter day.  When did it get so blooming grumpy?  Ah I still have a shocking array of Dad jokes that come out as much as possible but that spark has gone.  Those ops guys you could really have a laugh with are getting fewer and further between.

 

Perhaps I'm getting old.  But it just feels somehow like there is a whole generation "missing" of people you'd expect to be there but aren't.  I'm always a stickler for developing people from within and I think there has also been poor Technical leadership out there who don't.  So perhaps there needs to be a bit of taking that on the chin.  And perhaps I need to bring the fun more... 

Thoughts?

[SQFconsultant]

The CV bio-weapon jabs & boosters took down a number of people directly from vial sources #2 B and also #3 C.

 

Add to this those that developed blood clots and other illnesses as a result of secondary Spike K Protein shedding.

 

And then all the people that fell ill, had childbirth complications etc.

 

Next from the PlannedDemic add in people that fell out of work from the bio-weaponized nose swabs that were coated with Grapheen, Azide and other Oxides that can cause turbo cancers and then add in those that flat out quit when their employers told them to get the shots or face being fired.

 

In a recent table discussion with on the subject we discovered the estimates to be as high as 1 billion world wide gave died or been maimed.

 

I know of a number of Healthcare professional that refused the shots git fired and are now involved in bringing their employers to international court under US law codes and Nuremberg Crimes Against Humanities.

 

Many people left the food industry and many of those were production, techs, QA, etc.

 

In addition the amount of arrests in the US, UK. France etc of food company owners and high management for Crimes Against Humanities is downright staggering.

 

And this past week and continuing is the arrests of world-widd seceet society members such as freemasonry.

 

Most folks facing Nuremberg Code tribunals will be either jailed for long sentences or exited.

 

Frankly, we were able to stop a number of companies from forcing the jabs on their employees but sadly I personally know of over 100 people that have died with most in the food industry.

 

So where is everybody - they were either smart enough to say no and quit - going into other endeavors or they thought they had no other option but take the forced and spin the wheel.

 

There is a growing number (including our company) of companies that will not hire the jabbed - we gladly hire the anti-bio weapon folks, none of whom want to work for any company that attempts to kill and maim their own employees.

 

So, that's where I think they have gone.

[Tony-C]

I don't think it was just having a laugh GMO, it was a sense of pride in the job and I was proud of the people I mentored and the teams I developed through my career. 

 

Still, we've got crazy Glenn   on the forums with his conspiracy theories to keep us amused ! 

 

Kind regards,

 

Tony

 

 

[GMO]

I don't think it was just having a laugh GMO, it was a sense of pride in the job and I was proud of the people I mentored and the teams I developed through my career. 

 

Still, we've got crazy Glenn   on the forums with his conspiracy theories to keep us amused ! 

 

 

I was wondering what type of metal I should fashion my hat out of, is aluminium foil still in fashion?

Yes you're right.  It wasn't just having a laugh, it was a sense of pride.  Where has that gone?  I still have it but it's wavered over the years.  I've got a little jaded!

[genZfoodie]

As a Gen Z QC Manager, I feel I'm in a minority in our industry. There is a definite disconnect between young people and the ways in which food is produced and there are only a few specialist university courses (in the UK) on offer to get younger people started in the industry. The QC & Technical side of food is obviously less glamourous than NPD etc. and I guess people expect auditors and other food safety authority figures to be older/ more experienced. 

 

All the best and thank you especially to the contributors on this topic for your many years of knowledge sharing that I revisit constantly in my first foray into being a Quality and Technical Manager

[MDaleDDF]

It ain't just the food biz.   Youngsters want something for nothing, and it's gotten so bad that unfortunately incompetence is everywhere, because at the end of the day, ya gotta hire someone....

And tinfoil I think would do nicely, yes...... interesting take on the lack of good food safety employees for sure.....

[Dorothy87]

 

 

In my opinion this is associated with number of audits that we need to faced when the site is chained to different retailers. The BRC or any other global standard is just not enough, then we are spending a sick number of hours comparing standards when retailer decides to update version no. 10000 to 10001 without telling the difference as we need to do a gap analysis anyway. Each audit is a massive stress, yes is a team work BUT in the end of the day you are the one with QA manager sitting with the auditor for 2 days sometimes from 07:00-19:00 explaining each clause. you have team to deal with, customers, management system, factory walks, projects, expectations to be always AA+++++++++... Food industry is not a sexy beast, and gen X is fully aware of this, as 35K plus for such stress is just not worth it.. 

 

- totally agreed on post  c 1 9 issues.. 

[HYBRIDIZED]

 

In my opinion this is associated with number of audits that we need to faced when the site is chained to different retailers. The BRC or any other global standard is just not enough, then we are spending a sick number of hours comparing standards when retailer decides to update version no. 10000 to 10001 without telling the difference as we need to do a gap analysis anyway. Each audit is a massive stress, yes is a team work BUT in the end of the day you are the one with QA manager sitting with the auditor for 2 days sometimes from 07:00-19:00 explaining each clause. you have team to deal with, customers, management system, factory walks, projects, expectations to be always AA+++++++++... Food industry is not a sexy beast, and gen X is fully aware of this, as 35K plus for such stress is just not worth it.. 

 

- totally agreed on post  c 1 9 issues.. 

i have been in food safety for 5-6 years initially i didnt care about money i was passionate, curious and had the drive. Now, after working for these terrible companies (although i learned a lot from them for which i have gratitude) i am already tired of this because of low wages, nobody takes us seriously (unless you work for a company that does which is becoming rare), growth, and lack of interest. I have started studying to switch industries and if that doesnt work i can always come back tbh i dont wanna come back i will do anything else.

Edited by Aartisharma98, 09 May 2024 - 01:44 PM.

[Setanta]

The past 4--5 years have been EXHAUSTING!

 

But I think some of it is the perfect storm of Baby Boomers, retiring and aging out of the workforce. People not being willing to learn how others prefer to work or even trying to cooperate. New people being told to stick up for themselves, but being slapped down when they do.

 

Companies buying into GFSI programs, wanting a quick fix for food safety, without acknowledging that it requires work on their end, also. An example was when our facility was 1st SQF certified, I recall asking for CoAs from a large multinational company, who sponsored GFSI and SQF and had HUGE name recognition, and they did not want to provide any of the micros required. For meat, poultry and eggs. Everything with them has been like mining for gold.

 

People not wanting to do the tough things

 

Companies wanting more for nothing. I could continue to rant, but I won't.

[Scampi]

 

35K plus for such stress is just not worth it.. 

 

 

 

Please tell me your kidding

[HYBRIDIZED]

Please tell me your kidding

That person is a experienced professional. When i joined my salary was 38k excluding taxes and they didnt pay overtime. Now, it is 45 k while now i'm working at more experienced role so for all the hardwork we get this much. I'm done with this already

Edited by Aartisharma98, 09 May 2024 - 05:25 PM.

[matthewcc]

I think this must be said since you brought it up, but demographically the phenomenon is not that complicated:  In terms of what the population could have been (should've?), abortion is taking a large toll, and people are delaying childbirth and marriage, and when they do get married, some people forego children entirely.  Maybe you can find some numbers Glenn, but I suspect illness and childbirth complications are relatively small factors.

 

https://www.ons.gov....r to mid-2020).

 

The population of England and Wales at mid-year 2022 was estimated to be 60.2 million, an increase of around 578,000 (1.0%) since mid-year 2021. 

 

In the year to mid-2022, we estimate that 983,000 people immigrated to England and Wales from outside the UK, while 441,000 emigrated; this makes net international migration to England and Wales 541,000. 

 

In the year to mid-2022, there were 9,800 net internal moves out of England and Wales to the rest of the UK. 

 

Is it not alarming that there were only 46,000 more births than deaths in a nation of 60.2 million, i.e., 0.076%?  I would argue this is not sustainable and is the greatest factor leading to the shortage of workers.

 

Because of the factors I mentioned, we should not wonder there are not enough people to hire, but the cost is not only to our labor force, but more so to our souls since we do not prioritize the value of human life.

[GMO]

Thanks Matthew, that's why I alluded to Brexit.  Some of our right wing politicians want to weaponise the fact that we had a lot of EU immigration in the 00s but to be honest it was needed.  Now we left the EU, many people who came over 15 years ago and started in Technical employment programmes returned to home countries.  Covid probably accelerated that because travel was difficult.  But I think it's only part of the equation.

[G M]

There is a lot of conflict inherent in what we do for quality and safety.  The people we interact with in other departments are frequently motivated by their own KPIs, and gaining compliance and real cultural support within the organization is a social/political struggle that a lot of people just don't want to deal with on a day-to-day basis.  Plenty of technical people are already less inclined to want a job that revolves heavily around social wrangling. 

 

Add to that some generational drift in the level of comfort around face-to-face interpersonal conflict resolution vs. avoidance and it compounds. 

 

Add some more with modern sophisticated logistics systems that let us market our goods far more widely, and we heap more layers of standards that need to be complied with, and the "opposition" in that conflict becomes even less inclined to want to comply with specifications for a place or people they will feel even more detached from so the technical person is that much more strained to gain compliance.

[Scampi]

 

  In terms of what the population could have been (should've?), abortion is taking a large toll, 

If you're going to spew this sh**  you better be prepared to back it up with facts

[ChristinaK]

I think the lack of senior management's understanding of how complicated safety, quality, and compliance can be is what really hurts the industry. The global supply chain can only get more complex, the regulations and customer requirements more scrutinizing, and if you want to hire someone to tackle everything that comes with that, you need to pay $$$. 

[GMO]

There is a lot of conflict inherent in what we do for quality and safety.  The people we interact with in other departments are frequently motivated by their own KPIs, and gaining compliance and real cultural support within the organization is a social/political struggle that a lot of people just don't want to deal with on a day-to-day basis.  Plenty of technical people are already less inclined to want a job that revolves heavily around social wrangling. 

 

I write this with no small hint of "look, I know" but isn't that what food safety culture was meant to fix?

I am actually a huge fan of wanting to change cultures.  And I'd say progress has been made in terms of getting it into standards etc.  BUT that's still talking to Technical people.  While the GFSI approach might be that your culture plan MUST NOT be led by Technical alone, who is reading the standard?  Who really gets judged on compliance against that standard?  It's not your MD.

[matthewcc]

In 2021 alone, there were 214,256 abortions for women resident in England and Wales, the highest number since the Abortion Act was introduced.

I consider that a huge toll.  How can that not be mentioned when we talk about "Where is everyone?"

https://www.gov.uk/g...-and-wales-2021

If you're going to spew this sh**  you better be prepared to back it up with facts

[mgourley]

I've been in the biz for over 30 years.

I've been saying for years that the food industry is going to be in serious trouble when people of my age (61) retire.

 

It really does not matter how much mentoring/instruction/explaining you do, the vast majority of younger people coming into the industry simply have no desire to do anything other than get a paycheck. The mindset is just not there. And I simply don't know why. You try the explanation "This is why we ask you to do these things because here are the possible consequences if you don't. Don't you hope the people at other manufacturing facilities that make the food you eat are doing these things?"

 

This is why over the last 5-10 years there has been this push for "Food Safety and Quality Culture" It's in all the GFSI schemes, It's creeping into customer requirements. And it's all well and good, but it's such a nebulous concept. There is no "definition" of what it should be and how to achieve it. 

I bang my head against the wall every day because the people I am trying to help comply with third party/customer/legislative requirements just don't seem to "get it".

 

It's frustrating, exhausting and not beneficial to my own mental health and well being 

 

Marshall

[GMO]

 

In 2021 alone, there were 214,256 abortions for women resident in England and Wales, the highest number since the Abortion Act was introduced.

I consider that a huge toll.  How can that not be mentioned when we talk about "Where is everyone?"

https://www.gov.uk/g...-and-wales-2021

 

 

I think to blame the lack of Technical people in the food industry in the UK specifically on women having abortions is...  a stretch.  I chose to ignore that reference when you first posted it because it's valid to say all developed nations have low birth rates but come on.

 

While birth rates are not high in the UK, that's not down to abortions or whatever political spin you want to put on it.

 

Please can we keep this to science?

 

In any case, low birth rates would be impacting all functions.  Technical is particularly impacted.  One of the senior leaders in my company puts his functions where he has concerns as Technical and Engineering (and in that order).  Not operations.  Not commercial etc etc.

[GMO]

This is why over the last 5-10 years there has been this push for "Food Safety and Quality Culture" It's in all the GFSI schemes, It's creeping into customer requirements. And it's all well and good, but it's such a nebulous concept. There is no "definition" of what it should be and how to achieve it. 

I bang my head against the wall every day because the people I am trying to help comply with third party/customer/legislative requirements just don't seem to "get it".

 

 

I've not been in the food industry as long as you have but I would say that when I joined we were very much in policing mode.  And I could tell you stories of what went on which would not be allowed nowadays.  Some of the ops people I worked with I called cowboys to their face.  People would openly fake paperwork and get away with it.  

 

So I'm wary of harking back to the days when I was prepared to work 12, 14 hours (17 I think was my limit) to be actively policing because in the remaining 7 hours people were still doing what they hell they liked.  

I do understand what you mean on it being nebulous but I also am a big supporter of the culture elements.  I only think we're talking with the wrong people about it and until there are REAL consequences and or we find another way for business leaders to OWN this, it just will not have as high an importance as money.  

On reflection as well, I think these things come round in times of economic challenge.  I don't think it's a mistake that horsegate was discovered a few years after the economic challenges falling out of the sub prime crisis.  (And please don't think if you were not a European based business back then that you weren't eating something which had been fraudulently mislabelled, it was rife and global.)  But we're back in that perfect storm of increasing costs due to cost of living but on the back of exhaustion...

 

And haven't the last few years been exhausting?

 

I just get the feel though it's not only young people leaving.  If I were a few years older I'd consider retiring early.  

[jay2023]

Since the older generation of QA management has moved on in their careers I have definitely noticed a downgrading of Technical roles here in the UK, extra staff and additional layers of management being added to compensate for lack of competent staff.  

[HYBRIDIZED]

 But we're back in that perfect storm of increasing costs due to cost of living but on the back of exhaustion...

 

And haven't the last few years been exhausting?

 

I just get the feel though it's not only young people leaving.  If I were a few years older I'd consider retiring early.  

 

big companies and billionaires are behind this inflation. Wealthy needs to be taxed more. covid-19 pandemic was just an excuse inflation.

 

we all have been working diligently some before, during and after covid which has been challenging for numerous reasons.

 

we all need a vacation or retirement.

[MDaleDDF]

[Scampi]

 

In 2021 alone, there were 214,256 abortions for women resident in England and Wales, the highest number since the Abortion Act was introduced.

I consider that a huge toll.  How can that not be mentioned when we talk about "Where is everyone?"

https://www.gov.uk/g...-and-wales-2021

 

WOW!  you really read that article didn't you

 

You may want to take of your doomsday glasses and read it again