27 replies to this topic

[Charles.C]

Dear All,

It seems to me that despite attempts by bodies like the EU to harmonise food laws, there remain wide variations in attitudes towards food safety within the EU, for example you have Sweden with its Salmonella free poultry environment (seemingly unattainable outside Scandinavia) and Simon willing to try his luck on 'dodgy' fish fingers. I wonder if there are fundamental reasons for these differences? Eg it is proportional to their natural environment, eg cleanliness ? Inversely proportional to adventurousness in diet, eg frogs ? Who do you think care the most ? Least ? and Why ?


Rgds / Charles.C

[Charles.C]

Dear All,

I rapidly realised that this forum is for relaxation only so I changed my question to a poll, slightly biased on Simon's earlier World distribution. Feel free to be honest or patriotic as you wish. Or guess.

Rgds / Charles.C

[Simon]

Dear All,

It seems to me that despite attempts by bodies like the EU to harmonise food laws, there remain wide variations in attitudes towards food safety within the EU, for example you have Sweden with its Salmonella free poultry environment (seemingly unattainable outside Scandinavia) and Simon willing to try his luck on "dodgy" fish fingers. I wonder if there are fundamental reasons for these differences? Eg it is proportional to their natural environment, eg cleanliness ? Inversely proportional to adventurousness in diet, eg frogs ? Who do you think care the most ? Least ? and Why ?

I voted UK. Why? The 1990 Food Safety Act was the catalyst and I know in food manufacturing we are pretty tight (pioneers???), BRC Food was a pretty early standard (1998) - does anyone know of an earlier one? and BRC food packaging (2001) - apart from AIB does anyone know of another? Due to less rigorous regulation in food service (vast job) we are probably the same as anywhere else, I've never had food poisoning here, granted that could be luck or possibly an asbestos stomach. HACCP became a requirement for food service here this year and with the 'star rating' system things should improve. Judging by the couple of articles I posted the other day they need to.

Regards,
Simon

[KellyB]

I really find it hard to vote. Having travelled almost everywhere around the world (being a flight attendant for a few years), I never had a food poisoning anywhere. The question is, what do you mean when you say "safe" food? Maybe I also have an asbestos stomach, but, see, eating junk food in fast-food restaurants doesn't give you any food poisoning but I believe that this is not the best diet anyone can have (this is just an example). It is true that UK is a pioneer concerning food safety standards (I must admit...). But the big question is what is really hidden in our foodstuff which will be proven unsafe after 10, 20 or 30 years (that we're eating it believing that it is safe) or that will cause health problems to our children or to our grandchildren (for example, what about Genetically modified food)? In my country there is much concern about this lately and it is needless to say that even though controls are VERY strict, the consumers are NOT INFORMED as they should be. What about your countries? Please feel free to give me your opinions, we are running a research in Athens about this matter.
Thank you and regards
Kelly

[Charles.C]

Dear Kelly,

Thks for the informative response.

As you rightly say, safe food judged how and by whom ?? Simon in another thread commented that he always gives any suspect food to his children first so I guess that is one possible definition.
Another rather more scientific (HACCP-type) definition of safe food is -

'The committee defines safe food as food that is wholesome, that does not exceed an acceptable level of risk associated with pathogenic organisms or chemical and physical hazards, and whose supply is the result of the combined activities of Congress, regulatory agencies, multiple industries, universities, private organizations, and consumers.'
The ref is http://fermat.nap.ed..._...163&page=63

Some people including myself would probably delete the 'wholesome' bit together with the text following 'hazards' which appears to be more of a promotional nature.
Nonetheless the word 'acceptable' still remains undefined and in many cases is a highly disputed HACCP variable as further discussed in the free-to-read text referred above and many of the threads in this forum also.
Although not from US it does seem to me that the openness of their system of information / education regarding foodborne illness is as good as (better than?) anywhere in the world although technically other countries may be of equal capability, eg Canada, UK, Australia as possible examples.
I am no expert on Greek food but if it is anything like Italian, I suspect the average oil content might rule out yr own country ??
I also take yr point regarding gene foods however this thread was more intended to allow people to express their opinions without necessarily resorting to hard science (since my attempt to do the latter miserably failed). I admire yr attempt to provoke responses from other readers however I would not be too optimistic.

Rgds / Charles.C

[KellyB]

Thank you for your comments, Charles C.

I am not too optimistic either. (In any aspect...) On the other hand, as our Chemist told me in the beginning of my work here at this company, the human being is also an organism that can adapt and overcome certain changes in the nature. (To comfort me with my agonies concerning what we eat and what our children will become, he told me that if people of 1900 were to eat what we eat nowadays at home, they would suffer from dysentery (at least...)
So I guess we are also a product of genetic modification (lol).
And to reply to your comment about Simon and trying any suspect food by giving it to his children first, here in Greece we say try it to your dog, if the pet eats it, then its ok...
The Greek diet is also ruled by olive oil, but the (well known?) mediterranean diet is not followed that much anymore.
Regards,
KellyB.

[yorkshire]

And to reply to your comment about Simon and trying any suspect food by giving it to his children first, here in Greece we say try it to your dog, if the pet eats it, then its ok...

I think I like the Greek saying better than Simon's. However I know Simon's was written with tongue in cheek (I hope) and assume he is refering back to John Gummer during the BSE problem Gummer.

[Simon]

I think I like the Greek saying better than Simon's. However I know Simon's was written with tongue in cheek (I hope) and assume he is refering back to John Gummer during the BSE problem Gummer.

Families of CJD victims accused him and the government of whitewash. But Mr Gummer, a committed Christian and son of a well-known Church of England clergyman, insisted he always acted in the best interest of the consumer - using his own family as a benchmark.

What's that got to do with anything?

[Charles.C]

Dear Simon,

Just a historical note, my reference was to -

http://www.saferpak....?showtopic=4440

Simon ---
'The fish fingers are long gone I tested them on the kids and they're still here. '

Rgds / Charles.C

[Simon]

Dear Simon,

Just a historical note, my reference was to -

http://www.saferpak....?showtopic=4440

Simon ---
"The fish fingers are long gone I tested them on the kids and they're still here. "

Rgds / Charles.C

Ah yes thanks for that Charles. I knew I'd said it but couldn't remeber where.

Simon

[cazyncymru]

I think i'd rather risk Simon'e 3 year old fish fingers than a Cadbury's chocolate!!!!

[Simon]

I think i'd rather risk Simon'e 3 year old fish fingers than a Cadbury's chocolate!!!!

Naughty, very naughty.

[cazyncymru]

Naughty, very naughty.

But oh so nice Simon!!

[Charles.C]

Returning to Topic -

Dear Kelly,

I just re-read yr initial post. I'm not quite sure if yr query for feedback referred specifically to GMO or to provision of food information in general ?? If the former I guess (not my direct field) that for many less developed countries national regulations are based on data issued by 'recognized authorities' though how critically I have no idea. In contrast, export companies have to obviously take note of destination regulatory issues.
If you are referring to info in general, I think it is is also necessary to incude accuracy in this assessment. For example my career has involved extensive use of mic.specifications in various countries. I have encountered great variation in available detail / accuracy and I tend to evaluate yr question on such basis since I feel competent (perhaps not always correctly!) to make my own judgement also. As an example, I briefly tried to google for food mic.specs for Greece and achieved very little except that prior to 1989 they apparently did not exist for seafood ( http://www.fao.org/d...8E/T1768E04.htm ). This is not too encouraging (IMO) as compared to, say, UK, US, Canada, Australia but please feel free to prove me wrong.
Perhaps you might consider a poll since I think yr basic question is interesting, the difficulty is to establish a reference point, eg specific item (GMO??) or 'general feeling' plus you need a specific / non specific geographic base (max of 15 categories from memory) - there are plenty of examples scattered around. The tricky bit is to entice people to push the button (thumbnail Miss XX of each country alongside entry ??)

Happy Christmas and New Year

Do you eat chicken in Greece ??

Rgds / Charles.C

Edited by Charles.C, 23 December 2006 - 01:06 PM.

[KellyB]

Dear Charles.C,

Thank you for yr reply. Let me be more specific. My query is HOW WELL are consumers INFORMED about GMO Food, in 3 aspects : 1) Are products giving enough information through their labels? 2) Do consumers really care? and 3) Are consumers well "educated" to understand what GMO means?
I am sorry to say that here in Greece the reactions are (a) total ignorance or (b) panic. In a recent survey we found out that most people read only the amount of calories on the labels and that only people of ages 25-50 are really careful to what they eat and have a general knowledge about all these issues. Younger people tend to fast-food/ready to eat meals and older people react with panic to the idea of genetically modified organisms and generally don't buy pre-packed food, they are more traditional.
I believe that all these phenomena are due to the lack of information by the authorities/press/school (or whoever is responsible...).
To reply to yr question concerning food specs in Greece, in general we follow the European Food Law and Directives. We have a Greek Codex Alimentarius (some 1300 pages...) and a competent authority (called EFET - National Authority for Food Control - http://www.efet.gr - I think the site is still only in Greek) a National Standardization Authority (ELOT), a very strong Center for the Consumer Matters and - believe it or not, controls are SO strict (I talk from my point of view as a representative of an importing company) that sometimes it takes us A WEEK to clear the goods from customs. No matter what certificates are accompanying the goods, microbiological, GMO, heavy metals residues and many other controls are carried out by the National Chemistry Laboratory in each and every Lot of products we import.
And yes, we eat chicken in Greece - in fact we eat a LOT of chicken in Greece, since we raise chickens (you can still find them even in some yards in Athens). Also we eat stuffed Turkey in Xmas, but we don't eat much duck, goose and phaesant. There was a little panic with the Avian Influenza (in the beginning), but since we have practically no cases so far, people have taken the necessary measurements and life goes on. Of course importations from some Asian countries are forbidden. In this case I have to admit that information through the media was very enlightening and helpful.
Finally, I have considered a pole, but I think I'm still very new to the forum and I don't know exactly how to prepare it. Any help would be highly appreciated...
With my best wishes for a prosperous New Year,
Regards,
KellyB.

[Simon]

Thank you for yr reply. Let me be more specific. My query is HOW WELL are consumers INFORMED about GMO Food, in 3 aspects : 1) Are products giving enough information through their labels? 2) Do consumers really care? and 3) Are consumers well "educated" to understand what GMO means?
I am sorry to say that here in Greece the reactions are (a) total ignorance or (b) panic. In a recent survey we found out that most people read only the amount of calories on the labels and that only people of ages 25-50 are really careful to what they eat and have a general knowledge about all these issues. Younger people tend to fast-food/ready to eat meals and older people react with panic to the idea of genetically modified organisms and generally don't buy pre-packed food, they are more traditional.
I believe that all these phenomena are due to the lack of information by the authorities/press/school (or whoever is responsible...).

I believe the survey findings would be mirrored here in the UK; although purely based on my general observations and gut feel. Do other Brits agree? Non Brits what about the understanding of GMO in your country?

Regards,
Simon

[Charles.C]

Dear Brooke,

Thks yr comment and welcome to the forum. Nice to hear from the Land of the Rare Hamburger.
I’m sure a lot of people on this forum will agree with you even though they didn’t vote (nudge). I can still recall eating some excellent (and cheap) rice dishes in a designated outdoor food area there several years ago.

Rgds / Charles.C

[Sankara narayanan]

Dear Charles,

Sorry for slightly deviating from the topic, we talk about cleanliness on the streets of different cities in different countries and extrapolate it to their general culture and behaviour... I beg to differ.
Look at the footballers and cricketers of all the countries and see how they keep on spitting on the field/ground, they say it has spread to tennis as well, my point is basic human behaviour is more or less same everywhere.....


Best Regards

A Sankara Narayanan

[Charles.C]

Dear Sankara,

Well, in the present context, I guess the point is which aspects of basic human behaviour you consider acceptable from a sanitary point of view ?

Rgds / Charles.C

added - is there a definition of basic human behaviour anyway, Wikipaedia gives -

Human behavior is the collection of behaviors exhibited by human beings and influenced by culture, attitudes, emotions, values, ethics, authority, rapport, hypnosis, persuasion, coercion and/or genetics.

I guess sanitation and football are in there somewhere

[Charles.C]

Dear Brooke,

To be honest, all I can remember were excellent fried rice mixes at 2 different Hawker Centres (not the Sankara type!) / food courts . Also had an equally enjoyable meal in the worker’s café at the port, even cheaper. Not saying that I agree with all the ubiquitous restrictions but some of the sanitary ones do seem to have value.
Mind you, I also had one of the greatest Fish and Chip repasts of my life in a hotel in Kerala, albeit a more localised environment.
Some common problems I have met in my travels are that although the cooking procedure is usually fine (cf burgers !), the ability to control the raw materials / eating environment / holding time / recycling is often questionable.

Rgds / Charles.C

[Sankara narayanan]

Dear Brooke,

To be honest, all I can remember were excellent fried rice mixes at 2 different Hawker Centres (not the Sankara type!) / food courts .

Mind you, I also had one of the greatest Fish and Chip repasts of my life in a hotel in Kerala, albeit a more localised environment.

Dear Charles,

I dont think I discussed my food habits earlier, but believe me I am a pure vegetarian and a teetotaller at that. Even though born and brought up in Kerala I was in Mumbai for 13-14 years . So I like the South Indian as well as North Indian varieties, but Kerala dishes like puttu(steam cake), idiyappam(string hopper) and dosa always have had a special place in my heart(stomach rather!)

As for the small restaurants, some of them are really famous for delicious curries(which part of Kerala did you come to?)

My eating/drinking habits have landed me in trouble on several occasions. Here in Ghana too getting the right food has been a perennial problem even thogh have coconuts(they dont know how to use a coconut),tapioca(called casava here - used only for making the local dish - 'banku-kuffu'), plantain( can you believe - raw plantain is roasted and eaten here?)

Best Regards,

A Sankara Narayanan

[Charles.C]

Dear Sankara,

This is getting a bit OT but nonetheless interesting I hope.

I am an occcasional teetotaller myself but usually for economic reasons.

Seem to remember sampling a Keralan curry and it was blazing hot which is not so unusual of course but over my tear gland level. Hence the Fish&Chips. Also familiarity = > safety but hardly a justifiable logic.
(No doubt Singaporean currries are also hot but their fried rice was non-explosive and more readily accessible I guess, plus the ultra-clean environment encouraged the (over?) timid to be more adventurous ).

Your knowledge of Indian food is excellent compared to the average English consumer however I believe that tapioca is equally popular in UK as a delicious pudding called "frogspawn".
I theorise that tikku masala etc is a new generation cultural change. Like McDonalds in Asia ?

Referring back to yr earlier post regarding "typical" environmental characteristics I think one factor which tends to be overlooked is the effect of varying climatic ambient temperature following inappropriate sanitary practices. For example, I think most seafood initially has pretty low total bacterial levels but the basic finished product standards for, say, North Sea processed products are IMEX barely workable for typically processed tropical species. Not that this proves the latter are less safe but the potential is different. Maybe you don't agree ?

Rgds / Charles.C

[cazyncymru]

http://www.lovelurpa...e...207&page=14

this may be of interested

c x

[Charles.C]

Interesting that this poll has the same number of voters as Wimbledon 2007.

Dear Cazx,

Right up yr (v)alley I guess!
Fascinating thread. Good product too IMO.
I tried my litmus test by putting HACCP into the search engine. Nada.
It is totally understandable that people associate OK smell/taste with safety, perhaps the reality should also be on the label with a Skull and Crossbones above the Use By dates.
But the next question is - where do the dates come from ? Risk matrix ?? Don’t think anybody on the forum asked about that ? (I would like to know also.)
Industry must have loved one comment about Best Before dates getting shorter due to people more readily throwing things away. Unfortunately the overall consumer trend in this forum appeared to be opposite – a Nation of Shopkeepers and Gamblers.
Can’t remember if this dating method is standardised EU, presumably yes [for retail anyway]?? Wonder what the US do ? (my guess is no dual system)

Rgds / Charles.C

added - The linked post is clearly authoritative however the suggestion to run the fridge at 2degC would probably cause a sound like Maria Sharapova in hotter climates.

[cazyncymru]

When I worked in the canning industry, I found a catering size can of rice pudding that was dated some 10 years prior in one of the cupboards.

So as I was bored and it was a saturday (before i reached senior management days!) we opened the can and did a full micro suite of tests and then carried out a "taste test"

I'm still here, and as long as the can is not damaged, and the food looks and smells ok, i'll still eat it.