15 replies to this topic

[Foodprep]

We produce RTE Soups which are hot filled into bags and containers around 80-84C (176F-183.2F) and then sent into blast freezers for quick chill followed by storage in a cooler once it reaches 4C. We make meat and non-meat soups. We cook our products in commercial cooking containers with automated agitation. The environment is not fully controlled/ it is open environment. We open the lids of containers to manually check product temperature during cooking. Once cooking is complete, we connect a pump to our cooking container (soup says hot). It gets pumped into containers/bags which are then manually sealed/closed and sent into blast freezer and cooler. 

 

Based on our risk assessment, our pathogens of concern are C. botulinum, Listeria, C.perfringens and Bacillus cereus. Currently, we are offering about 3 months of shelf life. The company has been offering this shelf life for at least 2 years. They do not use preservatives but I guess presence of salt in the soup also helps somewhat6 They want to increase their shelf life to 6 months. They want me to do shelf life studies to make such change. 

 

We have seen other soups (some are sold under Kirkland costco brand) where the shelf life is 5 months (when you factor in the distribution time etc.) However, these soups use some preservatives. We use no preservatives in our product. 

 

My worry is whether it is safe for us to extend the shelf life for so long. As long as everything is temperature controlled, it will be all good but retails are not always on the mark when it comes to keeping product below 4C or 39.2F. We have kept product for 6 months for non-meat soups with super clean microbiological results but I wonder if it's a gamble where we are good for as long as we are. 

 

Can someone suggest any scientific literature that can back up such long shelf life with the given pathogens of concern or someone has experience with hot filled RTE product where the environment is not enclosed. 

 

Thanks,

Kay 

[GMO]

The chilled food association in the UK do some excellent work in this area.  

 

Here are two resources:

 

SUSSLE & the 10 Day Rule for Shelf Life - Chilled Food Association

CLEAN - Non-proteolytic Clostridium botulinum shelf life guidance - 9 7 18 FINAL

 

From memory if you don't have pH, Aw or salt control you need to have a cook which is 90oC for 10 minutes, you need high risk / low risk segregation and be using disinfectants which are effective against spore formers.  Not all are.  But even then 3 months is high.  Getting beyond 10 days on chilled foods like this in the UK is a big deal but we do know that we're super twitchy on stuff like this.

 

Don't assume though that the other plants aren't doing extra. I assume there is a chance they're disinfecting their packaging in a combined hot fill / aseptic process.  Or they could just not be thinking it all through.

 

Do you have an equivalent to Campden BRI or Leatherhead in Canada?  I.e. a food research organisation?  Or is there a university who could help on this?  I do think you need expert help.  Or if you don't know of anyone, maybe try Karin in the UK, she's THE woman who knows her sh** about setting chilled shelf lives in the UK, far more than I do.  She might know someone in Canada who can help.

 

Karin Goodburn MBE Hon FIFST | LinkedIn

[Foodprep]

The chilled food association in the UK do some excellent work in this area.  

 

Here are two resources:

 

SUSSLE & the 10 Day Rule for Shelf Life - Chilled Food Association

CLEAN - Non-proteolytic Clostridium botulinum shelf life guidance - 9 7 18 FINAL

 

From memory if you don't have pH, Aw or salt control you need to have a cook which is 90oC for 10 minutes, you need high risk / low risk segregation and be using disinfectants which are effective against spore formers.  Not all are.  But even then 3 months is high.  Getting beyond 10 days on chilled foods like this in the UK is a big deal but we do know that we're super twitchy on stuff like this.

 

Don't assume though that the other plants aren't doing extra. I assume there is a chance they're disinfecting their packaging in a combined hot fill / aseptic process.  Or they could just not be thinking it all through.

 

Do you have an equivalent to Campden BRI or Leatherhead in Canada?  I.e. a food research organisation?  Or is there a university who could help on this?  I do think you need expert help.  Or if you don't know of anyone, maybe try Karin in the UK, she's THE woman who knows her sh** about setting chilled shelf lives in the UK, far more than I do.  She might know someone in Canada who can help.

 

Karin Goodburn MBE Hon FIFST | LinkedIn

 

Thank you again! I will reach out to Karin. I will see if I can find something similar in Canada or even a university.

[kingstudruler1]

I somewhat remember U of guelph may have resources.  Maybe scampi can chime in.   

 

As GMO stated - expert help is what you need. 

[Scampi]

Before we go any further, 

 

 

Are you following this regulation?

https://inspection.c...aled-containers

 

and this

https://www.canada.c...-eat-foods.html

[Foodprep]

Before we go any further, 

 

 

Are you following this regulation?

https://inspection.c...aled-containers

 

and this

https://www.canada.c...-eat-foods.html

Hi Scampi,

 

We do not do hermetically sealed conatiners. Our product (cooked around 90C for 20-30 min, depending on type of soup) is cooked in large cooking containers where we open the lid from time to time to check the temperature using a handheld thermometer. Once the soup is cooked, it is hot filled into small containers and bags via manual pump with a hose connected to the cooking container. Packing process is also not sterile or enclosed. 

 

Yes, we follow Listeria regulations. 

 

Thanks,

Kay

[AZuzack]

Develop a new shelf study.  It'll take 3-8 months.  Group your products by ingredients, pH, salt content.  Set aside enough samples to do a sensory and microbiological evaluation of your product.  You can do it monthly or every 15days or whatever.  So Day 0, 30, 60, 90, 105, 120, 135, 150, 165, 180, 195 maybe even 210 duplicate samples.  See what the sensory and micro growth tell you your last acceptable day is.  You test for spoilage organisms not pathogens. Do that across all your product groupings and then work your way through all your products.  

[Scampi]

My point was you are producing a low pH product (particularly those with meat) and it requires special consideration regardless of packaging type

 

I would spend the money to have a accredited lab perform accelerated shelf life for you (I'm guessing you're within driving distance of a depot or the lab itself)

 

Given that this product does not have a preservative and is not pasteurized post fill or aseptically filled, I doubt that you will be able to extend the shelf life at all without changing your ingredients or process

[Foodprep]

Next month, we are starting a real time 6 month study (duplicate samples) for shelf life testing. Company is willing to wait 6 months for the lab results to back up the shelf life extension. We will test for ACC, TC/E.coli,Y&M,Bacillus, Staph, C. perfringens. We deal with Bureau Veritas and they do not offer C. botulinum testing.

 

Tbh, I am not extremely concerned about the spoilage organisms because the product taste would be off and it will probably show visible mold growth. My big concern is the fact that hot filled product can support the growth of Clostridium botulinum non proteolytic strains and Bacillus Spores. Our process isn't designed to destroy spores. My worry is what if these spores germinate for eg. conditions such as some strains of C.bot spores require minimum of 3C to germinate. At the same time, I think if it can last 3 months then why not another 2 or 3. 

 

I am also looking into preservatives which have antimicrobial properties against sporeformers. I have no product development background but I will start with asking questions to our spice/ingredient suppliers.

 

I am sure I will be coming back to this post a lot more in the next few months. 

 

I understand that we all have busy lives and just want to say that I respect and value the time of each and every one of you guys. 

 

Speak soon!!

Kay 

[jfrey123]

@Foodprep, I don't have much of a hot food background, but based on your last post I have a couple of questions:

 

You identified in OP a number of pathogens of concern in your HA.  You've stated in post #9 that one of those, C. botulinium, is not going to be tested for in this shelf-life extension study.  Possibly a red flag, especially when you state your process "isn't designed to destroy spores."  Based on that, my question is does your HACCP plan address a CCP at this cooking step that prevents the pathogens you've identified?  Does your HACCP prove that your blast chilling occurs quickly enough to prevent growth?  And since you've already pointed out a risk where retailers could temp abuse the product, how does your soup react to such temp abuse(s)?  

 

Stating that your not "extremely concerned" about spoilage organisms because you believe there would be visual mold or an off smell/taste feels a little too risky to not have firm data to address the above.  The pathogens you've identified don't have to be accompanied by olfactory indicators to be present in your product.  Again, I don't have much background in hot food production so I could be off base here (and I invite someone to tell me if I am).

[Scampi]

YOU MUST TEST FOR C BOT

 

end of story, 

 

Or since, you appear to not want to comply with the law,  are you at least complying with this

 

https://inspection.c...a-monocytogenes

 

5.2 Growth limiting parameters

L. monocytogenes can grow at temperatures between –0.4 to 45°C but its growth has been recognized to be prevented in food by:

• a pH below 4.4 (regardless of water activity),
• a water activity (aw) below 0.92 (regardless of pH)
• a combination of both factors such as pH below 5.0 with aw below 0.94
• freezing

[Setanta]

Please know that while the 'sniff test' was acceptable when my mom was growing up, it is not acceptable now.

The adage "If it isn't documented it did not happen" is certainly applicable here. 

 

From the CDC site:

Foodborne botulism You cannot see, smell, or taste the toxin that causes botulism. But taking even a small taste of food containing the toxin can be deadly.

Common sources of foodborne botulism are homemade foods that have been improperly canned, preserved, or fermented. Though uncommon, store-bought foods also can be contaminated with botulinum toxin.

I think we are all urging you to do more testing. It's OK not to know, but if you've been given advice, you may want to consider it.

[Foodprep]

 

YOU MUST TEST FOR C BOT

 

end of story, 

 

Or since, you appear to not want to comply with the law,  are you at least complying with this

 

https://inspection.c...a-monocytogenes

 

5.2 Growth limiting parameters

L. monocytogenes can grow at temperatures between –0.4 to 45°C but its growth has been recognized to be prevented in food by:

• a pH below 4.4 (regardless of water activity),
• a water activity (aw) below 0.92 (regardless of pH)
• a combination of both factors such as pH below 5.0 with aw below 0.94
• freezing

 

It's not that I don't want to comply with law. I won't be here if that was the case. The company has been doing it for a few years. It's been 3 months since I have re-joined this company and they are looking into further expansion of their business including the extension of shelf life. 

[Setanta]

And I think we are all saying that your way isn't the best way to do it. 

[Foodprep]

Yes, I forgot to mention earlier that I am looking for a place where they test for C.botulinum.

 

Here's a bit more info on how this hazard is addressed in our HACCP Plan. 

 

Listeria mono: Listeria monocytogenes is inactivated (6D process) after 0.05 minutes at 82°C. Our cooking process is much more intense than this. We need to make sure that no contamination occurs at hot filling and we have controls in place for that. 

C botulinum: Is more heat resistant of the two pathogens therefore our process is designed to provide a 6 log reduction of Non proteolytic Type B. However, it doesn't destroy spores like I mentioned. 

 

It's not that we have no controls in place. I am not sure if that's what my posts sound like. We do have controls. 

[GMO]

For C. Bot, Karin, the source I suggested earlier on is an absolute expert in that field and will know other experts who know far more than me.  The problem you may have is that even testing your processes, doing shelf life may not tell you much.  C Bot isn't routinely present so by saying it's absent in your shelf life, you're not saying much unless you knew it was present before you started your cook process.

 

The control factors proposed for L. mono above would be enough but I'd argue unlikely to be met.

 

90oC for 10 minutes cooking as a final hot hold (no opening, no sampling, then hot transfer) would help but in addition to all of that from memory you need to make sure the disinfectant you're using in your high risk area is effective against spores.  From memory, a lot of typically used ones aren't.  But even then I think 3 months is on the long side.  Let alone 6.

 

What would seem sensible would be a challenge test.  But they can be expensive.