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GMO

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Posted 28 March 2025 - 09:57 PM

Not wanting to hijack another thread, I thought I'd start a new one.

 

Many years back when the first FSMA regs came in, I got PCQI qualified but as I'd "grown up" with HACCP in the UK and EU, the most obvious thing to do to me was to combine the two.  I'm not writing two plans just for compliance purposes and as I'm UK based and only about 10% of my turnover was US export, I was prepared to die on that hill.  And as I have had up to about 10 customers at a time I've been very much used to adapting things that don't always want to go together to mush it all in and make it work.

 

Now it was news to me today that some US plants don't do this.  They have separate FSMA and HACCP plans.

 

Please, somebody, tell me why???  My mind is blown.

And perhaps most importantly, how on earth that helps food safety compliance in your plant which is (once all is said and done) surely the most important thing?

 


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kingstudruler1

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Posted 01 April 2025 - 04:26 PM

I think most facilities do combine them.   It SEEMS to me like it is usualy the facilities that are BOTH FDA and USDA regulated that like to keep them separatated.   

 

Process preventive controls are equal to a traditional CCP.   Sanitation, allergen, and supply chain preventive controls are not equal to a CCP, nor could they be in my opinion.   IMO they were created by the FDA as a way to regulate and place requirements on what should be normally occuring prerequisite programs.   

 

Adding the extra sanitation, allergen, and supply chain preventive controls to a traditional HACCP makes all of those programs readily available to an auditor Which some people have an issue with.   Dont give them more than they need / want.......

 

Fear that the auditor, regulator, customer that doesnt understand FSMA Preventive Controls will attempt to equate preventive controls (other than process) to a CCP.    The hazard analysis is essentially the same.   You are essentially saying there is a risk that needs to be controlled.   Yet you are controlling it with something short of a traditional CCP.   IE preventive controls (other than process) dont require validation, etc


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KTD

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Posted 01 April 2025 - 04:36 PM

The other concern is that there are differences between USDA FSIS HACCP and FDA HARPC food safety requirements. For dual jurisdiction facilities, when you combine the programs, you will be held to all the components of them during a regulatory inspection/review, whether they are required by that regulatory body or not. You may be able to notate certain points as specific only to USDA or FDA, but that may just cause more confusion and wasted time explaining what is going on...

 

When I was in a dual jurisdiction facility, we had separate programs but used combined forms on the floor.

 

Keith


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G M

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Posted 01 April 2025 - 06:04 PM

The other concern is that there are differences between USDA FSIS HACCP and FDA HARPC food safety requirements. For dual jurisdiction facilities, when you combine the programs, you will be held to all the components of them during a regulatory inspection/review, whether they are required by that regulatory body or not. You may be able to notate certain points as specific only to USDA or FDA, but that may just cause more confusion and wasted time explaining what is going on...

 

When I was in a dual jurisdiction facility, we had separate programs but used combined forms on the floor.

 

Keith

 

This is why we do it.  To keep the USDA inspectors out of the programs written specifically to cover FDA regs, and the reverse.

 

And yes, its a pain in the ***.


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GMO

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Posted 01 April 2025 - 06:15 PM

 

Fear that the auditor, regulator, customer that doesnt understand FSMA Preventive Controls will attempt to equate preventive controls (other than process) to a CCP.    The hazard analysis is essentially the same.   You are essentially saying there is a risk that needs to be controlled.   Yet you are controlling it with something short of a traditional CCP.   IE preventive controls (other than process) dont require validation, etc

 

Ooh that's news to me that non process preventive controls don't need validation.  Is there a reference you can share on that?  That must be super confusing for people.


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GMO

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Posted 01 April 2025 - 06:16 PM

This is why we do it.  To keep the USDA inspectors out of the programs written specifically to cover FDA regs, and the reverse.

 

And yes, its a pain in the ***.

 

Not going to comment on current politics because there is enough of that.  Suffice it to say, I do not agree what's going on right now, however, that is ****ing nuts maintaining two systems just because of auditing not because it makes food safer.  


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kingstudruler1

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Posted 01 April 2025 - 08:43 PM

Ooh that's news to me that non process preventive controls don't need validation.  Is there a reference you can share on that?  That must be super confusing for people.

 

 

I was too lazy to go get the regulations.   Attached is a screen shot from the approved training mainual.   

Attached Files


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kingstudruler1

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Posted 01 April 2025 - 09:02 PM

Not going to comment on current politics because there is enough of that.  Suffice it to say, I do not agree what's going on right now, however, that is ****ing nuts maintaining two systems just because of auditing not because it makes food safer.  

 

Its nothing new regarding politics.   its been messed up forever.   The USDA has been around for ≈160 years.  The FDA ≈ 120 years.   Why we ever thought we need two separtate departments that cover different types of foods, I dont know.   


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GMO

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Posted 01 April 2025 - 09:10 PM

I was too lazy to go get the regulations.   Attached is a screen shot from the approved training mainual.   

 

Helpful, thank you.  But again, mind is BLOWN!  Sanitation doesn't need validation...  That's just stupid.  Sorry.  But it is!  It's so fundamental to validate design and cleanability!


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GMO

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Posted 01 April 2025 - 09:10 PM

Sorry what is that manual?  I'm happy to search for it.


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kingstudruler1

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Posted 01 April 2025 - 09:27 PM

Sorry what is that manual?  I'm happy to search for it.

 

This is the old one.  

https://d1vy0qa05cdj...V1.2_public.pdf

 

The new one you have to purchase now.  

https://www.fspca.net/pchf-pcqi-v2-0


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kingstudruler1

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Posted 01 April 2025 - 09:33 PM

Helpful, thank you.  But again, mind is BLOWN!  Sanitation doesn't need validation...  That's just stupid.  Sorry.  But it is!  It's so fundamental to validate design and cleanability!

 

 

There techinically is some validation in the verification section.   Visual inspection, atp, etc.   

 

I sent you the manual you willl have to check it out.  


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kfromNE

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Posted 02 April 2025 - 12:09 PM

GMO - another thing to consider with this all. USDA - on site everyday. Our plans, paperwork, facility, etc - get looked at everyday. I've had relief inspectors (inspectors that fill-in for an inspector for a day while they are on vacation) spend ours of the day looking over our HACCP plans. FDA - depending on the risk - every 3 or so years.

 

Most USDA inspectors will pre-op weekly. So check how well rooms are cleaned/check sanitation. Most won't tell you what day they plan on doing pre-op or which room either. Depending on the inspector - they will write non-compliances if not up to their standards - subjective. 


Edited by kfromNE, 02 April 2025 - 12:14 PM.

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GMO

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Posted 02 April 2025 - 01:52 PM

Wowzers.  Lots of oversight.  Is it helpful oversight though?


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kfromNE

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Posted 02 April 2025 - 02:54 PM

Wowzers.  Lots of oversight.  Is it helpful oversight though?

 

Depends on the inspector like in everything. We have the same inspector for 6 months. Then it changes. Some jurisdiction areas see the same one for a long time.

 

It's helpful that they know the facility. They can see changes (for good or bad). I don't have to spend a bunch of time going over paperwork  and answering the same questions with them. A meeting is done weekly. So the inspector is made aware of any changes. Ours last under 20 minutes or less depending on what's going on. 

 

Also helpful - some inspectors will give verbal suggestions for minor deviations - a warning vs being formally written up especially if the facility is trying to do the right thing. One example - they see a new employee make a minor mistake. They'll let us know vs writing us up. 


Edited by kfromNE, 02 April 2025 - 03:42 PM.

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marco89634

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Posted 02 April 2025 - 03:04 PM

You're right in principle a single system would be great for better risk management and streamlining operations. But there's a huge "but"... The real issue is the FDA/USDA-FSIS split. Imagine the mess: the USDA controls meat, poultry, and eggs with its own specific HACCP rules and sends inspectors almost every day. The FDA, on the other hand, handles everything else with FSMA Safety Plans and does more sporadic inspections based on risk.
 
USDA inspectors are practically at home in companies and tend to be super strict, while FDA inspectors come much less often. It makes sense that companies would tailor documents for each. Think about companies that produce food that falls under both regulations: keeping separate plans has become a kind of defensive strategy. The USDA inspector comes in, you just show him the HACCP plan tailored for him, without risking him starting to poke his nose into the FDA parts and vice versa.
 
HACCP requires formal validations for all critical points, while FSMA is super strict only on Preventive Process Controls. For the rest - sanitation, allergens, suppliers FSMA focuses more on continuous monitoring than on initial validation. Separating the plans allows companies to follow to the letter what each agency requires, without having to justify to a USDA inspector why an FDA inspection is done in a certain way. Scientifically validating the effectiveness of cleaning is essential, but with separate plans companies can precisely follow the FSMA rules without an inspector, accustomed to the CCP logic, asking for validations not explicitly requested. It's one of those regulatory subtleties that seem absurd but in practice make the difference during inspections!
 
What further complicates the situation is the practical aspect of day-to-day management. Many American companies have already developed procedures and staff training based on this division, and changing their approach would require a significant investment. Think about employees who have been working with certain modules for years: some only deal with HACCP checks, others only handle FSMA documentation. Unifying everything would create operational confusion, at least at the beginning.
 
There is also the issue of legal liability. In case of problems or disputes, having separate plans allows you to clearly identify which regulation has been violated and which agency has jurisdiction. In a litigious country like the United States, where lawsuits are a daily occurrence, this clarity on responsibilities becomes crucial.
 
It should be noted that this separation also reflects the different philosophy of the two systems. HACCP was born for NASA astronauts, with a very technical approach to critical points. FSMA, on the other hand, is a more recent response to problems that have emerged in recent decades, with a broader vision that includes prevention, traceability and supply chain. They are complementary but with distinct origins and goals.
 
I have noticed that companies that maintain separate systems tend to see HACCP as the "heart" of daily food safety, while they consider FSMA more as an overall management system. This creates two levels of control that, paradoxically, can reinforce each other.
 
From the point of view of European efficiency, this all seems like a waste of time, but the American system, however redundant, works in its context. It is like driving on the left in England: it seems strange to those who are used to it differently, but locally it makes sense. In the end, what matters is that food is safe, regardless of the bureaucratic path taken to ensure it. Perhaps someday there will be true harmonization, but as long as federal agencies remain separate with different mandates, this dual management will continue to be the norm in the United States.

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Posted 02 April 2025 - 03:20 PM

It feels bonkers to someone on the outside of it all I have to admit. If you don't integrate the two, how is someone going to understand what they're doing, especially if they don't have the same first language?

 

I get it but doesn't it encourage a real delivery to comply with the standard rather than delivering the controls to comply with food safety approach?  

 

You have to remember as well that sites outside of the US who supply into the US need to comply with FSMA.  And I know of nobody who has said "I will write another plan" in answer to that challenge.  

 

Different mindsets, perhaps as you say driven by the litigious culture of the US.


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