20 replies to this topic

[Cheesecakes & Cake]

Hello,

Anyone else been affected by the BS recall for metal...

 

If we can prove that our own MD's are in working order, hourly checks, calibrated etc...

Can we get around the full recall even if the supplier is issuing?

 

There saying a failure for 3 minutes, allowed "316 s/s swarf" into bags...

But surely if our in house MD's can detect 316 s/steel.......

 

Ideas....

[Setanta]

Hello,

Anyone else been affected by the BS recall for metal...

 

If we can prove that our own MD's are in working order, hourly checks, calibrated etc...

Can we get around the full recall even if the supplier is issuing?

 

There saying a failure for 3 minutes, allowed "316 s/s swarf" into bags...

But surely if our in house MD's can detect 316 s/steel.......

 

Ideas....

 

Interesting, could you share a link for more details for Non-British QA? I am not familiar with this recall.

[Cheesecakes & Cake]

Interesting, could you share a link for more details for Non-British QA? I am not familiar with this recall.

 

It just been raised, it only affects x10 pallet in the UK so don't know think it will make its way to the USA

[Setanta]

Thanks, that wasn't my concern, I was trying to help you out...

[TimG]

MMM...no I wouldn't if I were you. I speak from experience that it could be they found shavings BELOW the threshold to set off metal detection.

Also, I'm not sure on UK law, but if an ingredient is recalled here stateside and a company uses said ingredient..Hell I honestly don't know what would happen. The ingredient manufacturer would alert FDA here that the customer 'refused to destroy' and I'm pretty sure FDA would push the ingredient user to destroy all product made with it.

[Cheesecakes & Cake]

Thanks, that wasn't my concern, I was trying to help you out...

 

 

I cant share a link as hasnt been raised to FSA etc.

What other information can i provide to assist?

 

I have stated a supplier has issued a METAL recall, saying they have had a MD failure during there production, however our MD's have been working correctly...

Thus can i justify not recalling the +5k of cakes .... as they have been passed through my own MD?

[MDaleDDF]

If it's a recall, I wouldn't mess with it honestly.... that would really suck, but if it's a recall are you not obligated?

[jfrey123]

I didn't realize participating in a recall was optional in the UK.  Food recalled for FM contamination would be considered adulterated in the US and using it afterward would mean mandatory recall of your finished goods.  Hell, the purposeful use of it after receiving a recall notice could bring official warning letters and borderline on actual criminal charges (depending on the severity).

[Cheesecakes & Cake]

...

 

Its not an official recall, not UK wide, is from the supplier! As they want to "screen" the product, ie they want to MD it again....

 

The supplier has advised that they have had an MD failure.

 

The question i have , if i can prove that all the product went through OUR own MD's is this suitable?

 

From the way people jumped on, i will ask my certification body for clarity...

 

TY

[Cheesecakes & Cake]

MMM...no I wouldn't if I were you. I speak from experience that it could be they found shavings BELOW the threshold to set off metal detection.

Also, I'm not sure on UK law, but if an ingredient is recalled here stateside and a company uses said ingredient..Hell I honestly don't know what would happen. The ingredient manufacturer would alert FDA here that the customer 'refused to destroy' and I'm pretty sure FDA would push the ingredient user to destroy all product made with it.

 

The supplier has been asked to provide the FB's so they can be put through MD to validate that our internal MD's are sensitive enough to detect!

[G M]

...

There saying a failure for 3 minutes, allowed "316 s/s swarf" into bags...

But surely if our in house MD's can detect 316 s/steel.......

 

 

The liability for FM injury is going to be far higher if you use material that you know was recalled for that reason.  Your insurance is very likely to refuse to cover you for knowingly ignoring the recall warning.

[PrplomSolved]

...

 

Its not an official recall, not UK wide, is from the supplier! As they want to "screen" the product, ie they want to MD it again....

 

The supplier has advised that they have had an MD failure.

 

The question i have , if i can prove that all the product went through OUR own MD's is this suitable?

 

From the way people jumped on, i will ask my certification body for clarity...

 

TY

 

 

your own MD should fulfill the need, but you would virtually be taking on the risk as your supplier let you know they wanted to do an additional MD due to failure. 

 

At least, thats how I imagine it would play out

[MDaleDDF]

I didn't realize participating in a recall was optional in the UK.  Food recalled for FM contamination would be considered adulterated in the US and using it afterward would mean mandatory recall of your finished goods.  Hell, the purposeful use of it after receiving a recall notice could bring official warning letters and borderline on actual criminal charges (depending on the severity).

Agreed, I'm confused.    Is this a difference for us and the UK?   You have don't have to participate in a recall?   The company recalled it, but it's not a recall?   So it's what I've heard called here a 'market withdrawal', which to me is BS...

They want it back to screen it.   So none of it has been converted to finished product and reached the market?   Do you have the entire lot?  If you haven't converted it to finished product yet, it seems really easy to just let them have it back.   Tell them to send a truck with replacement, and load the offending lot and send it back?

 

Agree with those have said you're letting yourself hang in the wind if you don't recall it.    IF something happens, it's going to be a really big issue.

 

IF this were me, I'd leave it up to people higher up the chain.   I would assemble HACCP team to discuss, and personally recommend we recall our stuff, but leave it to the company ownership/CEO/board/team to make the actual decision.   Then you're personally absolved regardless.

Edited by MDaleDDF, 17 June 2025 - 02:47 PM.

[GMO]

I just went hunting to the FSA website and saw it's not on there.

 

So it's a withdrawal not a recall. 

 

The legislation in the UK is around "knowing or have reason to believe" something is not food safe.

 

As I understand it from what you've said above, what has happened is the supplier with the unfortunate acronym have contacted you to say there "may" be an issue in some product they have supplied but have not recalled it.  They are wanting to withdraw it for more data etc.

 

Now, this is where I'd kick off my crisis team.  The supplier has approached you with a softly softly intent not trying to set hares running... But the problem is you've used some of the sugar, is that correct?

 

This is where I'd be alerting your crisis team (and the responsible person needs to alert your insurers as well) but the first priority is, in my mind, if your crisis team agree, to go back to the supplier, explain some of the sugar has been used AND GET THEM to explain how much of a risk they think it is.  In the meantime, get everything ready, everything traced and I'd be putting nothing else on the market made with those batches until I knew more but I wouldn't recall yet until I got a clear answer from the suppliers.

 

This is a consumer risk issue and an insurance issue but the latter is on two fronts.  

 

For the American readers, no this would not be classed as "adulterated" stock and it sounds very much like the supplier has not contacted the competent authorities.  It might simply be the supplier doesn't know or it might be a slight fishing expedition to find out how far product has been used.

 

As for if it's a risk when it's been through your metal detection?  Good idea to get a sample of the material.  But if you find it DOES detect in your equipment and you've not had any activations, all that will do is make you worried your staff haven't followed the procedure.  Sorry I'm just warning you...  You might then still decide to pull it back depending on how widespread and how much metal could be in it.  In the background your finance guys might want to be checking how much liability the supplier signed up to in their contract.

[Tony-C]

Hi Cheesecakes & Cake,

 

I agree with quite a few of the previous posts, the swarf may be too small to detect, your crisis team should be involved and all affected finished product identified.

 

As you have posted in the BRCGS - Food Safety Forums I am assuming that you are working to the BRCGS Global Standard for Food Safety Issue 9, in which case, Section 3.8 Control of non-conforming product is applicable in this case, then Section 3.11 Management of incidents, product withdrawal and product recall.

 

You should have by now:

Held and quarantined the affected sugar

Pressed the supplier for full details of the affected sugar and the 316 s/s swarf - how much? what size are the pieces? source?

Held and quarantined any affected finished products within your control

Withdrawn any affected finished products on shelves in retail etc.

Consider whether an additional recall notice is warranted if the product is still likely to be consumed

Ensure all actions are recorded

 

Once the situation is under control you will be quite within your rights to make a claim for all of the costs involved.

 

I have previously successfully made a claim against a reputable sugar company in the UK, so if I were you I wouldn’t be worried about financial loss, I would be worried about the safety of the products and the company reputation.

 

Kind regards,

 

Tony

 

[GMO]

I'm deeply concerned that the supplier hasn't enacted a public recall on this if it's as you say.  The comments on "swarf" specifically 316 stainless make it seem it wasn't just a missed metal check on their part but they've had known contamination. 

 

I agree with Tony the priority is consumer safety and we all know metal detectors have a failure rate, that's why most of us will have some kind of "I've found x pieces, now I stop and investigate...".  Depending on the shape of the pieces even ones larger than the ball bearing test piece size you use could get through.

 

I would be pushing the responsibility and carefully wording everything to the supplier who have not instigated a recall themselves.  I'd want a clear answer on why and clearly communicate that you are considering doing so based on what they've shared if they're at all slow or reluctant and WILL be making a claim.  Get your legal people on that this morning if that's not already done.

 

Tony is right in that we are food safety experts and we need to consider the food safety of the product first.  It's easy from the outside looking in though to assume you'd know how you'd act but I think this is looking like a recall.  There will come a point in this crisis where you either don't know enough from the supplier and you have to make a call despite your attempts, or they finally de-escalate (I feel like this is the least likely option right now) OR, the most likely thing I think you'll see is other customers jump first as you won't be the only one who has used this.  If this has gone into an M&S supplier and its been used, then it's quite likely that site knew before the supplier did as they may have picked up the swarf in x-ray and already had to talk to M&S.  If it's another UK retailer, they'll be considering pulling it.  On that last point, DO remember if you're making retailer branded, this isn't your decision, it's the brand owner and they should be informed.

 

Your last source of help is one I'd definitely recommend.  When you contact your insurers if you haven't already, some of them in the UK work with companies who help assess risk as a fresh pair of eyes / ears on an issue.  They won't tell you if you should recall but you can talk through, in confidence, everything that the supplier has gone through with you so they can help you think if anything you might have missed.

 

But certainly I would not be adding to the problem right now.  I'd not be sending any more product into the marketplace containing that ingredient and if you don't get clear answers which make it seem like less of a risk, I'd be inclined to recall.   But one thing you need to avoid is the scourge of the rolling recall...

 

Clear answers I'd ask the supplier right now.  Your legal team may have other ideas if you can ask these!

 

How was the incident found?

What is the source of the metal contamination?

What gives you confidence in the start and end of the contamination window?

How have the lines been decontaminated after the incident if you didn't find it at the time?

What is the most likely date / time for contamination?

What piece sizes have you found?  Smallest and largest?

What gives you confidence around other batches you've supplied?

Why was this not detected before we received the sugar?

Have other customers used the product?

Have any customers (manufacturers) found metal on their site due to this?

Have any consumers been impacted?

Are you aware of any other customers of yours considering recall?

 

I'm sure others can think of other questions to add?

[GMO]

So sorry to add...  

 

Not metal but I was involved in an incident a few years back with a physical contaminant.  On our site we switched supplier and country of manufacture of that ingredient.  So even though the supplier said "it's all in hand, there was just this one piece" a very wise Tech Director I worked with said "f that..." and switched.  A week later, when all of our product had sold through, they said "oh sorry, perhaps we do need to recall after all..."  Our sister site had believed their assurances and carried on using the ingredient.

 

Worth considering if they carry on being less than forthcoming.

[Cheesecakes & Cake]

Withdrawal was actioned 20:05 last night.       

Thanks for all advice..

 

Now to sort the paperwork....

 

& Determine best course when stock is returned....

[Cheesecakes & Cake]

So sorry to add...  

 

Not metal but I was involved in an incident a few years back with a physical contaminant.  On our site we switched supplier and country of manufacture of that ingredient.  So even though the supplier said "it's all in hand, there was just this one piece" a very wise Tech Director I worked with said "f that..." and switched.  A week later, when all of our product had sold through, they said "oh sorry, perhaps we do need to recall after all..."  Our sister site had believed their assurances and carried on using the ingredient.

 

Worth considering if they carry on being less than forthcoming.

 

How was the incident found?

End customer found piece of "swarf", from final call yesterday this was now escalated to multiple pieces over x3 separate bags..

What is the source of the metal contamination?

They have said S/S 316 but NOT admitted the fault from their site

What gives you confidence in the start and end of the contamination window?

There records, but have admitted a gap during the night shift... so lost confidence

How have the lines been decontaminated after the incident if you didn't find it at the time?

Information not provided

What is the most likely date / time for contamination?

Time and date of "incident" determined by manufacture

What piece sizes have you found?  Smallest and largest?

Only advised on the first peice 4mm long "swarf", no info on sizes of other peices

What gives you confidence around other batches you've supplied?

BRC site, no previous issues

Why was this not detected before we received the sugar?

Same question i have asked without an answer, one of the final pins in the haystack that led to final decision

Have other customers used the product?

+10 customers, already x3 reported issues

Have any customers (manufacturers) found metal on their site due to this?

Apparently were the only other site with an MD

Have any consumers been impacted?

No reports thus far, but risk has increased thus withdrawal from market actioned

Are you aware of any other customers of yours considering recall?

No, but we are the biggest apparently others are not retail/BRC

[GMO]

Agree, sounds sensible and any other action would have been very much at risk of "wish I'd done different".  

[GMO]

No UK recalls since 13th June in the UK.

 

Which is interesting...  Do update us?