6 replies to this topic

[Omoware]

Hi all,

 

Is it okay to refuse an SQF trainee auditor? I got an email from our CB requesting if it is okay to allow a trainee auditor join the audit online. I am not sure what the trainee auditor will be doing. And I don't know if they will be more strict if I refuse. Senior management do not want a trainee auditor.

 

Thanks,

[GMO]

This question comes up from time to time.

 

The line is, "of course you can".  The reality is "you're damned if you do and damned if you don't."

 

Across the world food technical people are in short supply and auditors are no different.  They need to be trained and observed auditing to ensure they are competent.  As they are joining online, perhaps they're only joining for the documentation section?  If you're not sure what they will be doing, ask.

 

The CB will tell you having a trainee auditor is no different.  It won't impact your audit and only one person will be auditing.  The reality though is you have two pairs of eyes.  It is possible that one of two things will happen, one auditor will spot and raise something the other will miss or the experienced auditor will feel the pressure to be absolutely "by the book" rather than advising as they may on their own.  Has it had catastrophic outcomes when that has happened for me?  No and the best experienced auditors I've known will actually openly say "If I was auditing alone, I would have raised this one additional issue but it's not going on your report as I was not auditing you" for example.  So it can work in your favour, but it's rare.

 

The problem you have is by refusing a trainee auditor, you risk irking the auditor (probably not as much as you might think though but it's possible) but also you're kinda not taking one for the global technical team as pretty much everyone I know is having one of their audits this year with a trainee because we desperately NEED the trainees trained.  Trust me an inexperienced auditor on their own is WAY worse.

 

So I'm tempted to say yes, you can but also suck it up.  

[Setanta]

I don't know what I would do the next time it pops up. 

The first time, I said yes, and the trainee was distracted and DISTACTING, to the point, I think he left mid-morning of day 2.

 

The CB asked me the next year if I would be OK with a trainee and I reminded them of what happened and said I'd rather not. They were very understanding and since it was the same auditor, so was he. 

 

All of GMOs points are vaiid. 

[SQFconsultant]

Part of the process steps in garnering the designation as an SQF Auditor is to shadow an established SQF Auditor and then have an established SQF Auditor shadow the soon to be designated SQF Auditor.

 

Since I was one of the first SQF Auditors (those were the days) I shadowed a lot of Auditors - understand the person is not a trainee, these are normally experienced Auditors (2nd, 3rd party, other GFSI's, etc) that need to undergo this step before full launch -  so they are up to speed on the nuances of an SQF Audit.

 

But, as the others have pointed out there can be issues and yes, you have four eyes instead of two - so my recommend is that your facility and operations be top notch to begin with.

 

Rarely did I find anyone that turned down the need for this - maybe 2 out of a hundred or so that I did - it is best for the industry as a whole to accept it and move on.

 

It only makes the industry better as a whole to host and conduct these Witness sessions, so I'd be top notch and see this as a good experience.

[jfrey123]

My very first SQF audit was a trainee being shadowed by a trainer.  My main complaint was the trainer kept interdicting and wandering away from our group and looking for things to 'show' to our trainee.  Not only was it the four-eyes issue, but it also kept distracting our trainee auditor and he had to revisit a couple areas and topics he felt he missed due to this.  Led to two of our owners asking us to clear the room to basically yell at the two auditors.

 

That said, in OP's shoes where the trainee is attending virtually, I'd be inclined to allow it, but I would want the CB to confirm via email or other that the trainee is not the auditor and the trainee shouldn't be permitted to disrupt the flow of the audit.  It's one thing if the trainee wants to ask the auditor about the auditor's handling of a program; it's completely different for the trainee to then start pointing out where they think a program is deficient. 

 

If they just want him joined in on Zoom during the desk portions, great.  If they think the auditor should be allowed to hold a phone and let the trainee join for the facility inspections, I'd probably cite my GMP's and decline.  Remember the screens can be recorded and you can cite your no-cell policy for visitors as well as protecting proprietary process information.

[Lynx42]

We had a trainee that was observing an auditor a few months ago and I seemed to have the opposite experience.  She was introduced, but didn't really say anything unless one of us specifically talked to her.  The auditor pointed out a couple things to her specifically about what she was looking for, but it was not at all distracting or disruptive.  After the audit was over and we had a list of our non-conformities (5 minors), the trainee was then invited to comment and ask questions.  We would have gotten another minor or two if she had asked her question during the audit.  We talked a bit about her notes and clarified some things she had asked about. The auditor said nothing from that discussion would be added to her report.  I thought it was respectfully done. 

[Stacys]

Yes, i have been told you can refuse a training auditor.