24 replies to this topic

[rheath]

Dear All,

I have recently had my appraisal. Happy to say that everything great with current objectives etc.

However a big part of our 4hour! discussion was on my career path. My ambition is to be General Manager of a manufacturing unit. My current GM believes that a big gap in my ability to gain this role is Sales / Commercial experience.

As such he is happy to support me in a managed career move into sales to get this experience.

I have always despised and spat upon the sales profession & have great difficulty visualising myself in a sales role.

However, I do admit I think my GM is right..

I open my quandary out to you learned professionals..

What are your thoughts

Thanks as ever

Richard

[Charles Chew]

Richard,

Everyone of us is a natural salesman. Afterall, you are not gunning for the Sales Manager post and thats excatly what a General Manager means.......simply, GENERAL.

I guess what i mean is you should need to know a bit of every thing but not necessarily an expert on it. Would you believe it if I told you that I was a high flyer in the big time corporate ladder some time ago before I got fed up and switched to HACCP and QMS........and I am now a producer of medical consumable as well.

Richard, its all about Human Management and as a GM, do you have what it takes to pull all the human resources in your organization to make things really work FOR YOU.....wonder what the sales experience will do for you when you are neither an expert nor a novice.

I do not agree with your GM's remarks. Could he be feeling threatened



Charles Chew

Edited by charleschew, 29 July 2004 - 03:38 PM.

[Simon]

First thing first, well done Richard! BTW I've moved the thread from ‘General Off Topic Chat' because your post throws up some interesting personal self development questions. Charles might not be too far off the mark when he says your GM could be feeling threatened.

I'm guessing on a normal day your eyes see 80% quality and 20% commercial, and it's important you have a broad and balanced understanding of the business if you want a chance of becoming GM and secondly to go on and successfully run the operation.

Quality Managers bang on about lack of top management commitment for their causes, but sometimes I think it can be just as much a lack of commercial empathy on the part of the Quality Manager. Like every other variable in the ‘Customer Fulfilment Pie' Quality is just one ingredient - and it's no more important than any other. No matter how much we might think it is.

Understanding all of the ingredients that go into the pie, how it is baked, delivered, and sold (you know about returns) will stand you in good stead Richard, whatever you do.

BTW I wasn't sure how to vote in the poll because I couldn't see an answer positively leaning towards doing a stint in sales. If I'm struggling drafting a poll I tend to stick to 3 possible answers (Yes, No and don't know).

Hope the family are all OK.

Regards,
Simon

[Wallace Tait]

Richard,
I've been where you may be heading. While I empathize, I certainly wouldn't sympathize if you decided to go into sales thinking that, your beloved GM is going to write a clause to protect you from the dark side of sales perormance levels.
Regardless of the GM's suggestion (I may be reading command) you may indeed be seen as some kind of threat to your GM's protected domain.
If you are free to make the choice, I hope you make the right one yet, I have been there and it was cartainly a challenge to say the least.
Good luck.
Wallace.

[Puzzle]

Interesting.

In an earlier life I have been a General Manager in a organisation.

Simon is correct regarding the commercial aspect of the QM on a daily basis.

Sales is a slightly darker area. True sales is very target orientated, and missing these targets can be used as negative tools. Marketing is slightly different and is probably more realistic to the real world and your development.

I do see a problem with your current GM. Is there any other posts within your organisation?

Personally I hate sales but have actually converted a recent lead and passed them into our system here, for my colleagues to actually get to the point of closing the deal.

Hope the above makes sense. Jet lag and all that.

[Charles Chew]

Richard,

May I ask if your organization currently has an Assistant General Manager post. If not, then I have good reasons to believe that my "theory" of your GM trying to protect his jaded domain is probably very likely.

May I also ask if you do become the GM, what would become of him then.....Group General Manager I do not think so.

In short, if he has the sincerity to groom you for the GM post, the best position would be the AGM post....................and not sales. And, if you are not the AGM now ....you are definitely not in line for the job yet but you are the AGM now......boy!........ you are definitely a big threat.

Choose the path well...........and know your "enemy within the domain". Good luck mate!

Cheers
Charles Chew

[rheath]

Thanks for your comments guys,

A few points for further comment:

Within my group there is a pretty fixed traditional structure. Each plant has its own GM who has complete autonomy (within certain constraints) over what happens in that operation. In effect this is quite a senior post within the group.

For me to get to this point I will need to take a few career steps first, I like the idea of an AGM unfortunately there is a fixed exec team structure namely Production, Finance & Sales reporting to the GM. I will at some point need to take one of these roles to progress to the next stage.

To put things straight a little, my GM would be more than happy for me to stay in the Role as QM as he sees me as 'safe hands' & trusts me.

My problem is that I am in a comfort zone where I know my job inside out and everything comes too easily (what’s the problem with that I hear you say). Well, I need a new challenge.

Next twist: There is currently a group Packaging Development Engineer post that I am interested in. This role is mainly project/customer based.

I raised this job in my appraisal and this is where the discussion of sales manager came in which is currently a vacant post at my plant. My GM was very clear that he did not want to loose me & this would be a route to enhance my skills.

I have no doubt that if I take this post, I will live and die by my results & not on past successes. In truth this is something I think I would thrive on.

[Simon]

Richard,

You know the GM better than any of us, and if as you say his motives are genuine then that's that. Only you can decide whether you really want the challenge and I think you may have already. A salesman role requires different attributes to that of a quality manager and if you think you are up to the job - then I say go for it! Especially if there's more wonga in it for you. Sales will certainly give you a great challenge and a vastly different perspective on the business, which can only be beneficial for your development in the long run.

Ask yourself what's the worst that can happen if it all goes wrong. Maybe agree a contingency plan and try to get something in writing.

If you take the sales job will you still visit SDF?

Regards,
Simon

[Charles Chew]

Richard,

From your comments, you seem absolutely well aware of the implications of this needed change to get you onto the next level. Thats a PLUS but I agree with Simon that you should be careful in case your present position is filled by someone just as capable......which means it may not be there for you anymore in case you wish to do a reversal.

The AGM post is really a good idea to prepare someone to take over an important helm. Why not propose this idea and see what he has got to say. Afterall, the post of AGM does permit you do SALES................yeah! yeah! I know its tradition but I think thats crap if you are a ISO 9K2K certified organization. That kind of attitude does not quite reflect the desire for continuous improvement

But I have another question for you. Why SALES and why NOT MARKETING. As a GM, the person should have the ability to plan strategies and not learn how to pitch to close a sales............this trait is not in everybody.

Well Richard, for what it is worth...........I guess nothing ventured nothing gain.

REgards
Charles Chew

[yorkshire]

Richard,

It sounds like you should go for this opportunity, if you do you may regret it but if you don't you definitely will.

From my experience of sales people the best ones have a technical/production knowledge of the product they are selling. They tend to come across as more genuine even if they are lying through their teeth.

My only worry would be how long do you have to be in sales. More than a couple of years and you could loose touch with developments within the factory.

[Puzzle]

The bottom line is, if you are intent on a General Managers position within your organisation, then the sales/marketing aspect appears to be 'compulsory'.

As Yorky puts it, you 'MAY' regret doing it but defintely 'WILL' regret not doing it.

Nice to have this sort of dilemma though...........

[Wallace Tait]

Richard,
I've just revisited this thread.
I have to reconsider my response. I understand that, without a sale, the business doesn't turn over. So I guess at the very least, you'll get the experience of viewing business form a sales perspective.
Wallace.

[rheath]

Well Guys & Gals,

Anyone want to buy a box!!


I appreciate I will have to hone my selling techniques a little.

Need to sort out the finer details but it looks like a career move is going to happen..

As you have all pointed out there will be no going back as my current role will be filled by a suitably able person. Watch this space for the job advert.

Thanks for all your guys input.

Simon, Dont worry I will still spend time on the Saferpak website, I will need something to keep me in touch with reality.

Kind regards

Richard

[Simon]

Need to sort out the finer details but it looks like a career move is going to happen..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Congratulations! I'm sure everything will work out fine and you'll make a tremendous success of it. Exciting times ahead…

BTW thanks for all your input on these forums.

Regards,
Simon

[Puzzle]

[Franco]

Need to sort out the finer details but it looks like a career move is going to happen..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We're on your side Richard

[Charles Chew]

Well done Mate!

[Simon]

Have you made the move Richard?

Regards,
Simon

[rheath]

It's funny you should mention it..

Things went quiet for a while & last Thursday I found out why..

Our manufacturing site will be winding down operations in March with bulk redundancies starting at the end of Jan.

So a bit of a disappointing few days really..

In summary a career move is definitely going to happen, it's just a little bit up in the air as to which way at the moment.

If anyone is after a superb QSHE Manager with excellent corrugated packaging technical knowledge I suggest you don’t ask me

Kind regards as ever

Richard

[Simon]

That's really bad news mate, I'm sorry to hear it. They're not moving production to China by any chance are they? Anyway if you intend to stay in the trade feel free to post you resume on here and on the web site jobs page - you never know.

Those of you who stop by here regular don't need me to tell you Richard knows his onions when it comes to management systems such as BRC/IOP and ISO 9001:2000 - he's also got a great sense of humour which is a bonus.

Regards,
Simon

[rheath]

Simon,

Thanks for your comments, I'm not suicidal yet & I may be posting my resume before long. I just need to pat the sand for a couple of weeks and see what turns up.

Most of our production will be going to sister plants in the UK. Basically our closure is result of over capacity which leads to poor selling prices.

It is a difficult pill to swallow knowing that we are probably the most technically competent, efficient & advanced plant in the UK. We are usually the plant leading the way (I somehow don’t think that other plants will want to follow us on the latest development)

Regards

Richard

Edited by rheath, 26 October 2004 - 11:14 AM.

[Simon]

How about a move into consultancy - Aargh! Maybe you could use your skills to help other organisations implement the BRC/IOP and possibly combine this with a spot of hygiene training.

We are always on the look out for high-calibre Associate Consultants with industry experience. And similar commission based sales personnel to promote and sell our fantastic training products. By the way can you speak French or German?

Regards,
Simon

[rheath]

Consultancy is an option which I have not yet ruled out, however the fact that I have just had my first child I do need the security of a salary income (as such would need to enter into an established consultancy firm).

With respect to my Language skills I have to confess I am a typical lazy Englishman, I only have basic appreciation of French & German.

Anyway, no panic yet.

[Wallace Tait]

Consultancy is an option which I have not yet ruled out, however the fact that I have just had my first child I do need the security of a salary income (as such would need to enter into an established consultancy firm).

With respect to my Language skills I have to confess I am a typical lazy Englishman, I only have basic appreciation of French & German.

Anyway, no panic yet.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good luck Richard,
I believe you shall be head hunted based on your exposure at the SDF.
Don't rule out consultancy though.
Regards
Wallace

[rheath]

Thanks Wallace

I am open to offers