22 replies to this topic

[Chac]

Hallo,
my company considers to deliver Lidl UK.
Does anyone knows if Lidl demands the BRC certification from their suppliers?
Thank you for your help.
Greetings Chac

[Charles.C]

Dear Chac,

Perhaps not but only guessing –

Which German retailers support IFS?
All retailers who take part in the HDE-Committee for Food Law and Quality Assurance. These are for example: Metro AG, REWE, EDEKA, Aldi, Tengelmann, AVA, tegut..., Globus, Markant, Lidl, Spar, COOP (Schweiz) and Migros (Schweiz).
http://www.food-care...amp;content=faq

- BRC (British Retail Consortium). This standard published by the union of British supermarket chains, the BRC, requires documented approval to ensure food quality and safety. Retailers include Asda, Tesco and Sainsbury's.
- IFS (International Food Standard). This food quality and safety standard is published by the union of German supermarket chains, HDE (Hauptverband des Deutschen Einzelhandels). It has been adopted by the French equivalent, the FCD (Fédération des entreprises du Commerce et de la Distribution). Retailers include Aldi, Lidl and Metro.
http://www.bureauver...inessScopeID=-1

Rgds / Charles.C

[Simon]

I will look up GFSI (Global Food Safety Initiative) - they have a scheme for approving standards that meet criteria for an FSMS. BRC and IFS are approved by GFSI, because essentially they are the same. Now whether Lidl accept or not I'm not sure.

[Charles.C]

Dear Simon,

It’s only a comment and I have no personal experience regarding IFS however the BV link in my prev. post seems to suggest that BRC / IFS are perhaps not that equivalent in practice, ie –

What are the main differences between BRC and IFS?
Both standards are aimed at retailers’ suppliers. Their goal is the same but the paths to achieve that same goal are different. The base of each audit is quite similar but the criteria and their levels differ. A scoring and ranking system exists for IFS but not for BRC. These similarities enable a third party to perform combined audits. However the required reports are so different, there is no potential time saving in reporting on both standards.
The 15 to 20% difference between BRC and IFS can be considered to come from cultural differences. For example, BRC will allow certification of a supplier with a major non-conformity, provided this supplier submits objective evidence that the non-conformity has been corrected within 28 days. On the other hand, IFS will never allow the delivery of a certificate if there is a single major non-conformity.

It is equally possible that the link authors are not unaware of business opportunities.

Lidl seems to be an interesting supermarket chain. http://www.guardian....2033346,00.html

Rgds / Charles.C

[Chac]

Hi Charles and Simon,
thank you for your answers.
We considered the same like Charles: Lidl is member of the HDE who demands the IFS. But we are not quite sure if it is the same with Lidl UK. I asked about that in several other forums but no one seems to know the answer. Looks as if their´s only one solution: phone to Lidl and ask them.
To BRC and IFS: I am just comparing these two standards and there are not much differences. The BRC is more detailed and demands a lot of things wich are in IFS "higher level" or "recommendations". The problem is that neither members of the BRC except IFS nor does members of the HDE except BRC. In August the new version of IFS will be published, wich should be harder than the last ( I don´t know the content). But I am afraid that both parties (BRC and HDE) will stay stubburn and not except the other standard.

Greetings Chac

[Simon]

We considered the same like Charles: Lidl is member of the HDE who demands the IFS. But we are not quite sure if it is the same with Lidl UK. I asked about that in several other forums but no one seems to know the answer. Looks as if their´s only one solution: phone to Lidl and ask them.

I think the best policy is to call them. Let us know what they say. If they say they only accept IFS and you are feeling brave ask them why not BRC also?

But I am afraid that both parties (BRC and HDE) will stay stubburn and not except the other standard.

If only they were as cordial as the users of the various standards throughout the world we may have consensus by now. I think at the beginning the sides fell out and their differences became pretty irreconcilable; we are so far down the track now and both standards have become respectively successful, it is even more difficult for them to kiss and make up. I suppose it’s like the cold war of food safety standards. I think we will have to wait until the climate warms up a little more. In the meantime companies must suffer the effort and expense of dual certification.

Restrained rant over.

Regards,
Simon

[okido]

Hi Simon,

My experience is that the majority of customers are rather flexible in accepting the well-known standards.
I see a difference between the IFS and BRC users. IFS users are in general more willing to accept other than IFS standards.
BRC users are more rigid and quit often pushing for a BRC certificate or they will not buy.
The debate that starts if not the right standard is “on the wall” tells you a lot about your customer.
If the customer can show you the details were there are weak points in your processes that would not have been there with another certificate that is fine with me.
But in reality it are quit often purchase managers who are chasing certificates that end up in the drawer for when the auditor comes by.
If you can get hold on the people in the customers organization who are willing to discuss vital issue’s regarding food safety than it makes no difference if you have IFS, BRC, or 22k.


Have a nice day, Okido

?? Would it not be nice if we had an open source food safety standard ??

[Simon]

BRC users are more rigid and quit often pushing for a BRC certificate or they will not buy.

Bloody British, so stuck up.

[Charles.C]

Dear Chac et al,

Well, at least this divergence has given us something to talk about.

Actually I was going to suggest a direct phone call in my first post but after reading the info. in last link of that post I rapidly deleted it as a probable waste of time (I bet you never read it, Simon?).
My limited experience with UK, BRC expecting customers has been less flexible than Okido; the problem being that they have developed the req. of BRC as a means of only having to do a very limited onsite audit by themself, the result is that a "policy" now exists.

I seem to recall a previous post stating that the poster had found the IFS audit significantly tougher than BRC but that could obviously be very subjective. Some actual comparative input would be nice ?.

Rgds / Charles.C

[Chac]

"Well, at least this divergence has given us something to talk about. "

I am happy about that. That´s why I like this forum so much: people actually answering to an item .
I´ve tried to start a discussion in a German forum but it never really startet, only one post and that´s it. In the other forum you could be off a week and when you in again you only find one or two new posts.

"I seem to recall a previous post stating that the poster had found the IFS audit significantly tougher than BRC but that could obviously be very subjective. Some actual comparative input would be nice ?."

Well as I said it above BRC sounds harder to me than IFS but at least I have no experience with it. And my company is not even sure if they wan´t to get the BRC certificate. And if they do so I won´t be there any more so I probably never can tell which one is tougher.

I couldn´t phone to Lidl though another member of the company want´s to. I didn´t get a recall from him so far. Just hoping that he didn´t forgot it.


@ Simon: I can´t imagine why Lidl UK shouldn´t except BRC. If not they would get problems with getting their products. Who should deliver them? Only foreign companys? Sonds difficult to me...but you never know how people minds works

Greetings Chac

[Simon]

Actually I was going to suggest a direct phone call in my first post but after reading the info. in last link of that post I rapidly deleted it as a probable waste of time (I bet you never read it, Simon?).

Of course I did Charles; I know Lidl don't have any telephones.

@ Simon: I can´t imagine why Lidl UK shouldn´t except BRC. If not they would get problems with getting their products. Who should deliver them? Only foreign companys? Sonds difficult to me...but you never know how people minds works

I've never shopped at Lidl, but I have shopped lot's at Aldi. Aldi sell products manufactured in UK, Germany, Italy and more, so I'm sure they accept IFS and BRC. Like you say it would make sense. If that's the way they work. Using my amazing skills of deduction I deduce Lidl would do likewise.

Regards,
Simon

[Chac]

Lidl seems to be an interesting supermarket chain. http://www.guardian....2033346,00.html

Of course I did Charles; I know Lidl don't have any telephones.


I've never shopped at Lidl, but I have shopped lot's at Aldi. Aldi sell products manufactured in UK, Germany, Italy and more, so I'm sure they accept IFS and BRC. Like you say it would make sense. If that's the way they work. Using my amazing skills of deduction I deduce Lidl would do likewise.

Regards,
Simon

Sounds like Lidl is not very popular in the Uk

[Charles.C]

Dear Chac,

Sounds like you might have a good chance with them -

Specification / District manager (inter alia) -

"Your Profile

* Degree Educated
* Excellent interpersonal and leadership skills
* Confident and determined to achieve
* Effective planning and organisational skills
* Flexible, mobile and adaptable to change
* German language would be an advantage"

Doesn't say anything about football though .

http://company.monst...idluk/index.asp

Rgds / Charles.C

[Chac]

Dear Chac,

Sounds like you might have a good chance with them -

Specification / District manager (inter alia) -

"Your Profile

* Degree Educated
* Excellent interpersonal and leadership skills
* Confident and determined to achieve
* Effective planning and organisational skills
* Flexible, mobile and adaptable to change
* German language would be an advantage"

Doesn't say anything about football though .

http://company.monst...idluk/index.asp

Rgds / Charles.C

Dear Charles,

I don´t want to work for Lidl though I heard that they pay not bad ( at least in Germany).
Just want to deliver them or better saying my company wants to.

Greetings Chac

[Simon]

Sounds like Lidl is not very popular in the Uk

I think it is, but just not so much where I live. What position is Lidl in Germany in terms of the largest supermarkets. Also do you have any of our supermarkets e.g. Tesco, Asda, Sainsbury's over there and how are they perceived?

Regards,
Simon

[Chac]

What position is Lidl in Germany in terms of the largest supermarkets.

Lidl is together with Aldi one of the most popular supermarkets (btw: a big managemt consultancy named McKinsey spend half a year with analysing the reason for this...you won´t believe what their result has been: it´s because of the cheap price!! Well they could have asked the people on the streets...but hey this wouldn´t be scientific enough!)

Also do you have any of our supermarkets e.g. Tesco, Asda, Sainsbury's over there and how are they perceived?

Ähm no I don´t think so at least I´ve never seen one. But I´ve never seen any other foreign supermarkets in Germany. Maybe we are a little bit intolerant at this point. So I don´t blame the British for not going shopping to Lidl.

Greetings Chac

[MartLgn]

I think it is, but just not so much where I live

You should visit the Lidl store in Heywood Simon, its very popular amongst the owners of local small shops as they provide a huge free car park ideal for the town centre (and when Morrison's is full!) , its a very popular amenity, as for what the store is like I've absolutely no idea and I don't think many of the locals do either .

[Esther]

@ Simon: I can´t imagine why Lidl UK shouldn´t except BRC. If not they would get problems with getting their products. Who should deliver them? Only foreign companys? Sonds difficult to me...but you never know how people minds works

Greetings Chac

Dear Chac

Good point Chac ! And that gets me to the following question: How many BRC certified industries in UK have gone for the IFS certification as a requirement from a foreign food store client , lets say Lidl ( German ) or Carrefour ( France ) or others ?

If the answer is "none" I only can think this is a question of "power": Let me explain.
BRC certified companies know that BRC is a wide recognized standard and very similar to IFS so ,while they are established in UK land ,they will not change to another standard.

Different situation is the one in Spain. We have not our own food safety standard nor widely recognized therefore we hace to comply with what the client says. That is why is not unusual to see a company asking for a combined certification ( BRC+IFS )

Sincerely
Esther

[Esther]

If you can get hold on the people in the customers organization who are willing to discuss vital issue’s regarding food safety than it makes no difference if you have IFS, BRC, or 22k.
Have a nice day, Okido

?? Would it not be nice if we had an open source food safety standard ??

Dear Simon

Right, From my point of view, the only difference remains on the competence and quelifications of the auditor. IMO that is one of the main problem ( apart from thing like "pride" of each country for their own standards ) to be addressed.

As I said, it is only my opinion

Sincerely
Esther

[Simon]

You should visit the Lidl store in Heywood Simon, its very popular amongst the owners of local small shops as they provide a huge free car park ideal for the town centre (and when Morrison's is full!) , its a very popular amenity, as for what the store is like I've absolutely no idea and I don't think many of the locals do either .

If I lived near I would try it Martin. I have shopped in Aldi and now do shop in Netto. A lot of peple are snobbish about these "value" stores, but it's costing them hard earned cash.

Right, From my point of view, the only difference remains on the competence and quelifications of the auditor. IMO that is one of the main problem ( apart from thing like "pride" of each country for their own standards ) to be addressed.

Agreed Esther.

[cazyncymru]

@ Simon: I can´t imagine why Lidl UK shouldn´t except BRC. If not they would get problems with getting their products. Who should deliver them? Only foreign companys? Sonds difficult to me...but you never know how people minds works

Greetings Chac

Chac

I have just had an auditor contact me in order to carry out an audit for Aldi

They will not accept my BRC Certificate because it is not from "their" Certification Body.
This audit is £1200 plus expenses

Strange, the auditing company won't say who the approved CB is though

[Simon]

Chac

I have just had an auditor contact me in order to carry out an audit for Aldi

They will not accept my BRC Certificate because it is not from "their" Certification Body.
This audit is £1200 plus expenses

Strange, the auditing company won't say who the approved CB is though

There's something wrong when Accredited Certification Bodies are perceived to provide different / better quality assessments. It's the little man (or woman) who pays the price.

[Chac]

Chac

I have just had an auditor contact me in order to carry out an audit for Aldi

They will not accept my BRC Certificate because it is not from "their" Certification Body.
This audit is £1200 plus expenses

Strange, the auditing company won't say who the approved CB is though

Yeah I know about that problem.
I´ve been told before we get certified we should inform ourselves which cerification body Lidl UK accept.