6 replies to this topic

[AL BUNDY]

Hi:
The Listeria m. hazzard shut be adressed in the HACCP or with GMP (SSOP)?
In the USDA generic model for "FULLY COOKED, NOT SHELF STABLE" meat product, they control Listeria with a CCP...
I know Listeria it's a big problem in this product...but if you adress a hazzard with SSOP... it's not necesarie to establish a CCP... ???

Any way... CL shoul be somethigs like "correct cleaning to ensure no listeria"?

...

I hate CCP with... CL like "correct cleaning, correct machine functioning, .....because those are PRPs (SOP - SSOP)..

what do you think?

Attached Files

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[foodmanuk]

An interesting point.

Going back to basics, a CCP is a process such as cooking intended to control a hazard. Therefore if you have a cooking step this would act as a CCP dealing adequately with many pathogenic bacteria including Listeria. However (I guess not knowing your process) that the real danger is for re-contamination from the manufacturing environment. In this case there is no specific process to prevent this just lots of good measures such as cleanliness, factory design, staff training etc. These latter points would all be described as PRP's.

Also from your question I would add a proviso. This being that HACCP is in part a vehicle to explain to custmers and government authorities that you are working to best practice. For these reasons I would always be prepared to vary how I wrote my HACCP i.e. If I lived in the USA I would look very carefully how their authorites prefer to view HACCP. In the UK where I live we tend to stylise our studies quite differently. Who is to say who is right, but lets not look for unneccessary fights!

I hope I have been of some help.

Best Regards

[Charles.C]

Dear Al,

The Listeria m. hazzard shud be adressed in the HACCP or with GMP (SSOP)?

It's yr HACCP plan >> your choice . Nonetheless, prps are very popular these days.

Actually, from a purely cooking aspect, L.mono. is also a favoured target species in various situations due to its difficulty to be eliminated (D value etc).

The zero tolerance for L.mono. in yr attachment must present a nice sampling evaluation !

Also the quoted visual inspection for metal particles in following step needs a lot of good eyes, I think.

Out of curiosity, yr quoted HACCP plan is dated when ??

Rgds / Charles.C

[AL BUNDY]

It's one of the USDA generic HACCP from 1999
little rushty..mmm... but everybody used as a reference... grrrr.
http://www.fsis.usda...odels/index.asp

any way what are the pro and conts between PRP's and HACCP?

1. if you adress a hazzard with a HACCP... you need more microbiologic analysis to document your CCP... and that cost more $$$. ¿?¿?¿?

[Charles.C]

Dear Al,

There are (at least) philosophical, historical, geographical and operational aspects to yr question, ie various opinions exist. As foodmanuk commented, the regulatory aspect may well control.

A few, occasionally diverse, viewpoints are in these links –

ftp://ftp.fao.org/docrep/fao/006/y4743e/y4743e02.pdf

http://www.ifsqn.com...?showtopic=7187

http://caima.net/HACCP.htm

What do you think ?

Rgds / Charles.C

[AL BUNDY]

Excellent.... love it.

And regard to my first Q. Slice machine Cleaning as a CCP for Listeria.....

A4. "It should be noted that not all prerequisite programmes can be considered as CCPs because the reasons given above do not apply (e.g. water potability, cleanup procedures, waste management, control of chemicals). If any of these programmes is ineffective then the specific system must still be corrected, e.g. as described in IS 8."

So to find a correct cleaning procedure, one can stablish a patogen controling program for that step.... until you reach your goal..."zero listeria in contact surfaces"

[bibi]

hi

thank you Charles for the ressources, Iwish if I had them few years ago.

we had one of our product(from16) was tested positive with Listeria.

what we have done about the CIP, it was a funny day but worthed at the end with negative result from Listera.

we divided the staff in two groups, one for low care, and the second for high care area, and made a competition

between the two, and asking a simple question: put your self if you are a bacteria as Listeria where do you hide?

on the same time we were testing their knowledge, and doing the proper cleaning on the same time.

this may help for someone.

regards

bibi