39 replies to this topic

[walabies]

Dear all, I am having a dilemma of changing the biological control CCP from 'holding tank' to 'spray dryer'. My argument is that the holding tank temperature won't be able to kill all the microorganisms which the spray dryer could reduce the moisture to <5%, which is the water activity that microorganisms that they couldn't survive. Is it valid for such argument? I could prove that the spray dryer works well.

Btw, I am in a dairy industry.

Edited by walabies, 25 March 2008 - 01:22 PM.

[cazyncymru]

Dear all, I am having a dilemma of changing the biological control CCP from 'holding tank' to 'spray dryer'. My argument is that the holding tank temperature won't be able to kill all the microorganisms which the spray dryer could reduce the moisture to <5%, which is the water activity that microorganisms that they couldn't survive. Is it valid for such argument? I could prove that the spray dryer works well.

Btw, I am in a dairy industry.

Walabies

if you mail me i can help you.

i've worked for more than 20 years in the dairy industry....ducking and diving!

caz x

[Bobby]

A study conducted in Cornell University has shown that spray drying is not an effictive kill step and it cannot reduce pathogens like salmonella to undetectable level.
The drying process dehydrates the bacterial cells and make it more resistant to heat and also protected by milk solids.
Spray drying, as per the study, does not provide complete destruction of vegitative cells. Spores will be even more resistant.

The water activity will be low at around 0.40 ( if the moisture content is 5 %), but that just means that pathogens cannot grow. It does not eliminate pathogens.

I dont think spray drying will qualify as a CCP.

Regards

Bobby krishna

[walabies]

Thanks for your reply Bobby, so if we maintain the moisture at <5%, the pathogen will be kept dormant?
The spray dry has a temperature of 150~180 degree, is it still insufficient to kill microbes?
If the spray dry is failed to be set as biological control CCP, what other aspect I should look for to set a CCP.
We have a HT that is currently used as our biological CCP (57.1 degree) but I am still not convinced by it as the critical limit is higher than our FP.

Btw, I have wrote an email to cazyncymru. :)

Edited by walabies, 27 March 2008 - 10:00 AM.

[Bobby]

Thanks for your reply Bobby, so if we maintain the moisture at 0.4, the pathogen will be kept dormant?
The spray dry has a temperature of 170~180 degree, is it still insufficient to kill microbes?
If the spray dry is failed to be set as biological control CCP, what other aspect I should look for to set a CCP.
We have a HT that is currently used as our biological CCP (57.1 degree) but I am still not convinced by it as the critical limit is higher than our FP.

Btw, I have wrote an email to cazyncymru. :)

low water activity will prevent growth of bacteria.

Though the spray drying temperature is high, temperature of the milk solids will be around 90 Deg C + or - .
Could you give the time of holding in the HT.

I think cazyncymru will be able to answer your questions better as he has good experience in your field.

Bobby Krishna

[Charles.C]

Dear Bobby,

Interesting information, thks. Is yr ref. to Cornell accessible on the net ?

@Cazx [def.of the feminine disposition Bobby, despite the ultra-polite posts ] - Am also interested in yr comments where non-confidential

Rgds / Charles.C

[walabies]

Hi Bobby,
The holding tank period isn't fixed but it is approximately 45 minutes to 1 hour. As a new microbiologist in this company, I am not convinced that it is used as a CCP. Intermediate product has a higher biological control limit than Finish product while we do not have CCP to reduce microbes in the later step.

walabies

[Bobby]

Here you go Charles,

http://jds.fass.org/...eprint/53/7/871

There is another study done in meat, published in 2006, Journal of food protection.
This study shows the kill effect of heat in relation to humidity inside the oven.

I can send you the paper if you require.

Regards
Bobby

[Bobby]

Hi Bobby,
The holding tank period isn't fixed but it is approximately 45 minutes to 1 hour. As a new microbiologist in this company, I am not convinced that it is used as a CCP. Intermediate product has a higher biological control limit than Finish product while we do not have CCP to reduce microbes in the later step.

walabies

You mean 57 Deg C for 45 minutes to 1 hour?
Obviously, you are using low temperature, long time method for pasteurization.
I wonder why the time and temperature are not specified.

Bobby Krishna

[walabies]

I have read your article. It seems that Salmonella posses a thread to our product.
So you have any idea that what time should I put? I know it must be proven by FDA and AOAC etc. I think we can do some experiment on the holding tank but I afraid the auditors might not accept it.

Edited by walabies, 28 March 2008 - 02:19 PM.

[cazyncymru]

You mean 57 Deg C for 45 minutes to 1 hour?
Obviously, you are using low temperature, long time method for pasteurization.
I wonder why the time and temperature are not specified.

Bobby Krishna

I'd be really concerned about this time / temp combination as i doubt that it would be pasteurised at any stretch of the imagination!

Maybe i'm wrong ?

[Bobby]

Use the link below to find the codex requirements.
http://siweb.dss.go....ex/CXP_031e.pdf

You may have to alter your time and temperature requirements for batch pasteurization.

The minimum temperature required is 63 Deg C and time 30 minutes and this has to be your CCP.


Bobby Krishna

[walabies]

Well according to our production side, the coffee creamer, our product, cant be heated over 60 degrees as it will start turning brown. Headache for me to control the microorganisms... So other than this "semi-pasteurization process", what other suggestion in the process can be used as a biological CCP?

[cazyncymru]

Dear Bobby,

Interesting information, thks. Is yr ref. to Cornell accessible on the net ?

@Cazx [def.of the feminine disposition Bobby, despite the ultra-polite posts ] - Am also interested in yr comments where non-confidential

Rgds / Charles.C

This has been a bit complicated in that it isnt a dairy product as i know it!

the main points are that the product isn't pasteurised as such, it is mixed in the holding tank, warmed up and this isn't being very well managed (time / temp is a bit vauge)

cleaning of this holding tank may also be an issue.

hopefully walabies is on the right track, after a couple of mails with pointers to what needs doing.

mind you, you have to take your hat off to walabies in addressing issues that may have long been ignored.

good luck walabies, i know you'll get there because you have the conviction to get it right.

[Charles.C]

Dear walabies,

I presume the data quoted in Bobby’s ref. is derived similarly to cooking processes where a target organism is specified and the temp/time parameters are calculated so to achieve a certain minimum kill ratio . As noted in ref, this practically depends on a variety of factors, matrix, etc as expressed in things like D, z values. Detailed tables of equivalent paired values are available for cooking. (The paired values 70degC / 2min are often stated as typical although various data can readily be found in the literature / IT ). It is perhaps also possible to calculate an integrated process result similar to canning theory (if you hv the knowledge and time ).

I guess the exact validity of wallabies data will require a bit more searching / calculation. I don’t personally know if the target organism is standardised for milk powder, eg Coxiella burnetti as mentioned in ref. footnote (L.monocytogenes is typically used for cooking).
Or perhaps there is an accepted standard setting of 63degC at min 30min similar to the 70/2min above ?
Certainly I wud hv expected like Bobby that the validated result wud be a CCP (and many thanks for all the interesting links ).

Rgds / Charles.C

[walabies]

It seems I have to look in other ways to reduce the biological count in our intermediates. The heating temperature might be inappropriate, but I will discuss with them whether there is ways to make the temperature to 63 degree 30 min. I will start with cleaning of machines and environment first. :)

[Bobby]

Walabie,
There are no shortcuts for attaining CCP's.

I dont think milk starts to brown at 63 Deg C. Maillard Browning starts at above 100 Deg C and if that is happening, it could be because some portion of the milk is getting overheated.
You may want to do a bit of validation in your process and dont get carried away with the explanations from 'operations.'

Well, looks like you got to do some research.

Regards

Bobby Krishna

[cazyncymru]

Walabie,
There are no shortcuts for attaining CCP's.

I dont think milk starts to brown at 63 Deg C. Maillard Browning starts at above 100 Deg C and if that is happening, it could be because some portion of the milk is getting overheated.
You may want to do a bit of validation in your process and dont get carried away with the explanations from 'operations.'

Well, looks like you got to do some research.

Regards

Bobby Krishna

Bobby

i've exchanged a few emails with Walabies regarding the CCP's. There's no milk in this product, which made a bit more complicated. but i hope i've helped Walabies, and he realises that the has to validate the mixing / pasteurising step.

[walabies]

Yeah, the creamer is a mix of oil and sugar. Thus, I am having an idea of putting a CCP at raw material receiving, and holding tank to control the growth of pathogens. Hope the auditors will accept my validation...

[Charles Chew]

Thus, I am having an idea of putting a CCP at raw material receiving, and holding tank

Not a good idea placing a CCP at the raw material receiving. From the details that you have given, your Org. probably has an internal lab. and Management is prepared to invest in a whole lot of validations in your incoming samples. Can you let us know your sampling plan and the sizes for each delivery. If you do not have an acceptable risk assessment of your supplier(s) why buy! I have no comments on the holding tank as insufficient process details had been provided.

[walabies]

Not a good idea placing a CCP at the raw material receiving. From the details that you have given, your Org. probably has an internal lab. and Management is prepared to invest in a whole lot of validations in your incoming samples. Can you let us know your sampling plan and the sizes for each delivery. If you do not have an acceptable risk assessment of your supplier(s) why buy! I have no comments on the holding tank as insufficient process details had been provided.

Yes there's lab for on-line QC-ing the finish and raw materials while me operating the microbiology lab. Every available raw material, Intermediate and finish product is tested. The sampling size... Hmmm, RM will be each delivery, FP 3 times each day for every plant while IP is once per day for each plant. What details you want on the holding tank?

[Charles Chew]

IMO your materials should be based on agreed specifications while the random tests are purely verifications. If continual testings are performed, then, it defeats the purpose of having a food safety system and you might as well go for end product testing and quarantine as your release criteria. On your holding tank, its impossible to comment as we have no idea of your process flow and as what Caz said its not a milk based product so what exactly is it!

[walabies]

IMO your materials should be based on agreed specifications while the random tests are purely verifications. If continual testings are performed, then, it defeats the purpose of having a food safety system and you might as well go for end product testing and quarantine as your release criteria. On your holding tank, its impossible to comment as we have no idea of your process flow and as what Caz said its not a milk based product so what exactly is it!

Sorry the process flow is somewhat confidential. :)
If that's it I should focus more on my finish product then...

[Charles Chew]

Fully aware of your rights on confidentiality of data disclosure. All the best.

[AS NUR]

Hay wallabies..

I am now working for coffee creamer manufacturer, and we already got ISO 22000 certificate..and we not put ccp on MIcorbiological Hazard.. the reasons Are :

1. the probability Salmonella in Coffee Creamer is Low.

You have to Hazard Analysis first.. Is the Salmonella significant Hazard for your Products .. How about the probability of occurrence in your product?

2. Microbiological hazard can control by GMP (personal Hygiene, Room Hygiene etc) .. that are part of PRP. So we just control the PRP (and OPRP)

3. Our process need higher temperature ( 180 – 220 oC) and temperature of product ± 93oC for 10 second stayed in Chamber. After that stay in Fludi Bad about 1 Menit at ± 65oC …according to our analysis in Product . we cannot Found Pathogenic Bacteria in the coffee Creamer..

That’s all my experiences .. I hope that can help you.



Thanks

AS NUR