22 replies to this topic

[Martinblue]

Hi All,

We are BRC accredited bakery. I am interested in putting a drinking water fountain in the production facilities. Is it allowed to do that and if so what are the provisions for this?

Please share your expertise and thoughts.
regards
Martin Blue

[Kamwenji Njuma]

Dear Martin Blue,

I think there should be NO EATING,NO DRINKING,NO CHEWING,NO SMOKING,etc policy within all production areas due to high risk of cross contamination.Never allow any eating and drinking within production areas but you can segregate a section may be within the handwashing areas where you can install a drinking fountain.

Regards,
Kamwenji Njuma

[Martinblue]

Hi Kamwenji Njuma,

Thanks for your comments really appreciate that.

I agree eating and drinking should not be allowed in production facilities and putting fountain in hand washing area. As it is fountain, no body will be using any container(cups etc) to drikn water, so corss conatmination cahnces are very thin.
Can anyone else comment on that please.

regards

Martinblue

[GMO]

I work in a bakery and I would have taken a similar attitude to the earlier poster before working there but in bakeries it's not always an option to exclude water from the production areas. We didn't get anything raised about it in BRC and I doubt they didn't notice. What would be ideal is washing hands or at least sanitising them after use. As for BRC, I would also suggest a risk assessment, they love that stuff...

[Martinblue]

Thanks GMO for comments. Regarding risk assessment I would be considering
1: Cross contamination risk----with control by hand washing and cleaning of fountain on daily bases, Signage for hand washing after drinking.
2: Slippery floor due to water spillage during usage---- Clean as you go Signage in case of spillage.

Am I missing any thing?



Regards

Martinblue

[Charles.C]

Dear Martinblue,

Do you mean the typical UK variety as cheerfully displayed in open-air locations ?

If so, IMO it “looks” ugly and fundamentally unhygienic. Not surprisingly, a popular item with employees, but I personally regard the units as an eyesore and potential (but unproven AFAIK) nonconformance. Nonetheless various public organisations obviously disagree, eg schools. Do any official (health) risk analyses exist ?

I hv encountered the use of a closed/renewable dispensing unit (not a fountain) located as just discussed. Visually / operationally, less objectionable than a fountain IMO but the requirement for storing / controlling the associated disposable cups / water microbiological quality were negative factors.

Rgds / Charles.C

[Martinblue]

Dear Martinblue,

Do you mean the typical UK variety as cheerfully displayed in open-air locations ?

If so, IMO it “looks” ugly and fundamentally unhygienic. Not surprisingly, a popular item with employees, but I personally regard the units as an eyesore and potential (but unproven AFAIK) nonconformance. Nonetheless various public organisations obviously disagree, eg schools. Do any official (health) risk analyses exist ?

I hv encountered the use of a closed/renewable dispensing unit (not a fountain) located as just discussed. Visually / operationally, less objectionable than a fountain IMO but the requirement for storing / controlling the associated disposable cups / water microbiological quality were negative factors.

Rgds / Charles.C

Hi Charles.C,

Thanks for your thoughts but i am bit confused how it would be unhygienic when satff are washing hands after usage and would be clean by on daily bases.I am not sure how much BRC accepts that even a risk assessment is done. I have seen in High Risk area of few food industries(BRC accredited and supplier to major retailers) but again question mark regarding BRC.

regards

Martinblue

[Tony-C]

Hi All,
We are BRC accredited bakery. I am interested in putting a drinking water fountain in the production facilities. Is it allowed to do that and if so what are the provisions for this?

Please share your expertise and thoughts.
regards
Martin Blue

Hi Martin

The BRC line is 'drinking shall only be permitted in designated areas segregated from food-handling areas'

These sorts of drinking stations are common where the environment can be quite hot. I would be looking to install it near a hygiene station which would fit in with your hand washing after use and I assume that you could argue is somewhat segregated.

I would be very surprised if a BRC auditor raised it as an issue. I think they are expected to be reasonably pragmatic.

Regards,

Tony

Edited by Tony-C, 03 July 2011 - 03:58 AM.

[Martinblue]

Hi Martin

The BRC line is 'drinking shall only be permitted in designated areas segregated from food-handling areas'

These sorts of drinking stations are common where the environment can be quite hot. I would be looking to install it near a hygiene station which would fit in with your hand washing after use and I assume that you could argue is somewhat segregated.

I would be very surprised if a BRC auditor raised it as an issue. I think they are expected to be reasonably pragmatic.

Regards,

Tony

Thanks Tony,
Really appreciate your comments

Should it be physical barrier for segergation or space segregation would work.?

regards
Martinblue

[Tony-C]

Thanks Tony,
Really appreciate your comments

Should it be physical barrier for segergation or space segregation would work.?

regards
Martinblue

I would think space would be sufficient

Regards,

Tony

[Martinblue]

I would think space would be sufficient

Regards,

Tony

Thanks Tony,

it was really helpful.

regards

martinblue

[Tony-C]

Thanks Tony,

it was really helpful.

regards

martinblue

No problem - be interested to hear if your auditor even mentions it let alone questions it.

Regards,

Tony

[Charles.C]

Dear Martinblue,

As a kind of follow-up to my earlier post, this link illustrates the kind of discussion which i would not like to hv caused the initiation of.

http://www.mumsnet.c...ntain-at-school

I also noticed in this supplier site for such items a noticeable absence of any claim as to "hygienic' quality. I presume they do hv to follow some minimum regulations, eg arc minimum height.
http://www.hawsco.co...nking-fountains

I also saw a comment in another factory facilities document which emphasised to locate close to a major water input supply point, presumably not done in first paragraph. (Nonetheless, the only procedure which got a definite no-no was installing ornamental fountains)

Rgds / Charles.C

[Martinblue]

Dear Martinblue,

As a kind of follow-up to my earlier post, this link illustrates the kind of discussion which i would not like to hv caused the initiation of.

http://www.mumsnet.c...ntain-at-school

I also noticed in this supplier site for such items a noticeable absence of any claim as to "hygienic' quality. I presume they do hv to follow some minimum regulations, eg arc minimum height.
http://www.hawsco.co...nking-fountains

I also saw a comment in another factory facilities document which emphasised to locate close to a major water input supply point, presumably not done in first paragraph. (Nonetheless, the only procedure which got a definite no-no was installing ornamental fountains)

Rgds / Charles.C

Hi Charles,

Thanks for the links. It is now much clear.

Please correct me if i am wrong, hygiene issue would only arise when there is problem with water pressure that can be fixed by increasing the pressure to 4 or 5 inches away from the metal bit and just catch it in mouth without touching anything.

Thanks again. it was really helpful.

regards
Martinblue

[Mel Morris]

Dear Martin Blue,

I think there should be NO EATING,NO DRINKING,NO CHEWING,NO SMOKING,etc policy within all production areas due to high risk of cross contamination.Never allow any eating and drinking within production areas but you can segregate a section may be within the handwashing areas where you can install a drinking fountain.

Regards,
Kamwenji Njuma

That is not practical for a bakery - it gets to nearly 40 deg C in a bakery here in Canada in the summer you cannot have people dying of heat stress related illnessnes and it's not practical to have them leave their station every time they need a drink.
We allow water only - and we have filtered water coolers at both ends of our bakery - we insist they use the disposable cups provided - no water jugs, coolers, bottles etc. This has not impacted our HACCP program, and has not caused any issues with auditors.

[jockdude]

We have a drinking fountain on the production floor and recently had our BRC audit, no mention was made of the foutain as the auditor walked past it. We have it within the walkway and as we have staff cleaning every day when in production it should not be an issue. There is no mess or waste as we dont use cups. I have never seen water on the floor. Its much better than having staff leave the production floor and taking longer than required just for a drink.

[Charles.C]

Dear jockdude,

Thks yr input.

Perhaps yr climate/situation escapes as per the previous post.

As a customer, i hv audited all-dry product processing units and hv happily never encountered a water fountain so far, or any water-feeding unit on the production floor. It would simply be a non-conformance for me (plus creating a precedent also).

In general, IMEX, most FS / GMP documents simply do not accept any kind of snack food etc being brought into the production area, never mind consumed there. The situation in lockers IMEX varies +/-.

My first reaction was that perhaps yr auditor had just won the lottery (if Jersey has one?).

@Martinblue, I saw one regulation which defined the minimum "projectile" height but can't remember the value.

Rgds / Charles.C

[SpursGirl]

Hi

I would like to bump this question back up the board as I have a similar question and rather than start a new topic thought I could add to this one.

We operate a very small (as in tiny) production plant in Canada and I have been asked by the operatives for a water cooler unit in the high care unit as they get thirsty and it is 'a pain' to go through the change procedure to go to the water fountain located outside the unit. The high care unit is so small that it would be impossible for me to section off an area for a water cooler that is not in close proximity to a production process. The staff have suggested the high care change room - the only space for this would be right next to the boot rack which I am not really comfortable with.

What is the general opinion?? Is a water cooler next to the boot rack ok?? Your advise would be much appreciated!


Thanks,


Sarah

[Charles.C]

Dear SpursGirl,

Welcome to the forum !

A little information on yr product/process might be relevant. eg why is it "high care?" .

My first, offhand, reaction was that the proposed innovation sounds like a recipe for trouble. Other people here may be less conservative.

Rgds / Charles.C

[GMO]

In hot working atmospheres I can understand the need but just because it's a hassle, sorry but tough. In high care manufacturing I've had water fountains in the low care side of the changing room but are they really saying they need to drink more often than every 4 hours or so (or however often their breaks are) in a cold environment? If so they have less patience than my 23 month old son.

[wijit]

We have a fountan within the production area, it is between the "dry" area and "wet" area, that is, we have areas where cleaning with water is OK and also separated by no physical barrier, where wet cleaning is permitted. We had our BRC recently and it did not even get a mention. Not only that, but the auditor had a drink whilst walking through. It is next to a hand wash and sanitising station.
As mentioned, they tend to be quite pragmatic about things and a risk assesment always goes down well, even if it never gets asked for.

[SpursGirl]

Hi - thank you for the welcome - I use this forum a lot as a useful source of information and opinion.

As a Brit working over here in Canada I am finding the implementation of technical standards a bit of a struggle at times! We operate a high care unit as we produce ready to reheat and ready to eat items but the whole low risk/high care ethos does not appear to be widely adopted here, and so it has been extremely difficult to get the employees to buy into the procedures and practices associated with the physical barriers. It is a chilled environment (approx 7C) so employees are not working in hot conditions and they have breaks every 2 hours (very generous in my opinion) but apparently - and I quote - Canadian bodies are conditioned to drink water every 30 minutes The unit is so very small (about the size of 4 double garages!) that having a segregated area for drinking would be impossible.

There is a fountain located outside the unit - but really the staff do not want to do the whole PPE changing procedure - as GMO says they are pretty childish in their attitude! The cooler in the changeroom was suggested so that they didnt have to do the changing but I really felt that drinking water next to the boot rack was very very wrong and a recipe for disaster - but at times I just need the confirmation from the wise and sensible such as yourselves.

Thank you for the advice - it has just helped me to confirm that I am not being picky (as the employees feel) and that it is entirely reasonable to have a cooler located outside the unit which is readily accessable albeit requiring a full change out of the high care PPE.

Many kind regards - and I am sure I will be calling on your experience and knowledge again!

Sarah

[gaardendan]

I'm not sure why it was decided that we can't find any acceptable way for humans to drink water in a food plant. As QA people, we are accustomed to our rules being adhered to because we said so. As Managers of people we need to understand that sometimes the rules we are trying to enforce are stupid. Humans need water, it's a basic need. If we can find a reasonable way to allow our staff to drink water without creating a food safety risk (legitimate risks only please), then we should do so.

 

Here is one way I have seen it done. Have dedicated water stations with hands free fountains. Done. If you can not afford hands free fountains, use a water cooler with cone shaped cups and a 1 Point Lesson that the water can only be consumed from the cup at the dedicated water station and you must wash your hands before returning to work. A robust daily sanitizing step will serve as the icing on the cake.

 

The plant I am referring to has used this approach to successfully navigate through hundreds of audits including 5 years of SQF level 3, FDA importer audits, CFIA Federal Meat Inspection audits, and many many 2nd party and 3rd party audits. These audits have been performed by the FDA, CFIA, NSF, Silliker, Steritech, and by customer auditors from most of the worlds largest fast food and dine in restaurant chains, grocery chains, and submarine sandwich chains.

Just my 2 cents