60 replies to this topic

[Simon]

Longstanding and more recent members know what a great resource these forums are for getting solutions to problems, kicking around ideas and sharing best practice. I hope I'm not being presumptuous in saying that. I also believe regular members will agree with me when I say the level of discussion could be better. When I say 'level' I mean quantity not quality.

To date we have 1,418 registered members, however only a very small proportion of these are active members.

We have a great software platform here, with excellent search engine visibility and I work tirelessly trying to develop the forums for us all, but I have to say after three and half years online, I had expected to see a significant ramp-up on discussion activity. I'm sure we would all like to see that.

After half a day away from the office, I dream of opening the forums in my web browser to meet 10 new members 10 new topics and 30 new posts, but alas, it's not happening - yet!

I may sound a little melancholy, but I'm not chucking the towel in yet, not by a long stretch. In fact, I'm more determined than ever to make this place a vibrant, thriving community for us all. However, I don't have all the answers and I urge you to help me by providing ideas on how we can get new and active members to join us.

Maybe we are doing something wrong, if we are please tell me. As ever, I'm open to your ideas and suggestions.

Regards,
Simon

[okido]

Hi Simon,

I see the same happening here in Holland, there is a forum launched recently for food safety that has now 50 members, activity is depending on 4 members. One set back we suffer with is the language, it is in Dutch so accessibility for non Dutch speakers is impossible.
A major hurdle is in my opinion that you have to take it up with specialists in the field.
Take the healthcare industry 50 years ago. My grandfather would not argue with his doctor, you did what being told. Today we take it up with our doctor and if we are not satisfied as customer we go to another. This evolution took years.
The same evolution will take place on Internet forums, the specialists will loose ground and the "ordinary" people take matters in there own hand.
The only thing it takes Simon is discussion, better Internet proficiency, and time.


Remember to share good fortune with your friends, Okido

ps, I pressed the wrong buttom and made a big quote, pse edit

[Simon]

I see the same happening here in Holland, there is a forum launched recently for food safety that has now 50 members, activity is depending on 4 members.

I remember you mentioning this forum, how are you involved Okido? Are you the administrator? What marketing efforts have you put in so far?

One set back we suffer with is the language, it is in Dutch so accessibility for non Dutch speakers is impossible.

Well niches are good in some respects, but sometimes it can be difficult and there is a limit to growth. I'm sure you knew this before setting out.

The only thing it takes Simon is discussion, better Internet proficiency, and time.

Yes you're right, there is no magic wand. All we can do is evolve, improve, encourage and wait.

ps, I pressed the wrong buttom and made a big quote, pse edit

I fixed it for you.

Any marketing gurus out there?

Regards,
Simon

[Simon]

I've attached some statistics on new member registrations and posts. When you look at the graphs the trend is up and up and up.

 Forums_Statistics__Registrations___Posts_.pdf   17.23KB   42 downloads
Cheers,
Simon

[Charles.C]

Dear Simon,

I'm not sure if that was a trick post since I am definitely no statistician and have no wish to promote tendencies to excessive but perhaps you should have also graphed something like (average posts / member) vs No.member. I remember the famous comment regarding road safety being on the decrease as evidenced by the increase in accidents.
Then again, it's a question of performance objectives I guess.
Rgds / Charles.C

[Simon]

Dear Simon,
I'm not sure if that was a trick post since I am definitely no statistician and have no wish to promote tendencies to excessive but perhaps you should have also graphed something like (average posts / member) vs No.member.

The stats provided by the forums software are quite basic, but I can have a play - do you want good news or bad news? What was it Disraeli said "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics".

By the way I've been following the Micro Uncertainty thread with a mixture of great interest and bewilderment, but don't worry I won't jump in and post - if I've learned anything these past three years, it is, I am the master at derailing a good thread with a crass comment.

I wonder Charles, do you think there is good level of activity on the forums for the length of time we've been around?

Have a good evening.

Regards,
Simon

[Charles.C]

Dear Simon,
I did a bit of mental arithmetic on your posted statistics and it seemed to me that the average No. of posts per member is not wildly changing over time, this can be interpreted in several ways of course, truths and half-truths. I agree with Okido, it is typical to find a large number of 'lurkers' in various forums I peruse, probably for various reasons, company-only knowledge, shyness, particularly, I think, reluctance to be 'hammered', some of the forums I've seen have often been a bit of a battleground even if not always intentional (not this one). Trouble is that it's often the apparently trivial queries which lead to extended discussions in my observation but you need input for this.

I was just thinking the forum was mighty quiet at the moment (too many unfunny posts from me perhaps) but then I remembered this is the human migration season in UK so nobody at home, except you seemingly (unless you are on a computer in the Canaries). I hope you are adequately remunerated for this labour of love.

One change I can see is that there seem far fewer queries regarding basic BRC (food and packaging) requirements than previous. I presume this is because many companies which needed BRC now have it (presumably the market will always be much smaller than for ISO9k2k for example). Plus maybe there are more consultants willing to offer a BRC package to the newly interested so that its also become easier to get (competition) without the soul-searching of the launch period.

Contrariwise, there seems to be some increase in deepish queries on HACCP. This is partly a result of the persistent Devil's Advocacy of Charleschew plus I guess it reflects the way the world is changing, expectations / penalties have become a minefield (eg BRC / due diligence). Or perhaps the auditors are getting smarter.

Also maybe you are submitting too few crass posts these days. Schmittelgroover 2 perhaps.
As an aperitif I uploaded this sample of  Audit_Experieces.doc   26.5KB   64 downloads

Rgds / Charles.C

[Charles Chew]

As an aperitif I uploaded this sample of  Audit_Experieces.doc   26.5KB   64 downloads

Dear Charles C.
I had a hard day today getting my work up to speed for delivery tomorrow and then came your timely "aperitif" that set me off to hilarious laughters.

Thanks for the break - I feel better now

Cheers
Charles Chew

[Simon]

Thanks for that Charles C, loved the stories. If this gets some attention, I might break it off and make a separate "Audit Experiences" thread - I'm sure we all have lot's to share.

Experienced auditees learn to use all sorts of diversionary tactics to deflect the trail from a known NC. It's a bit of a game sometimes. Many moons ago I used to be audited twice a year by a brilliant, but slightly scatty chatterbox auditor for ISO 9001. Whenever he asked to see a document that I knew was not up to date or realised when dusting off was not up to date I would throw in a leftfield question of my own. Oh, how he loved to share his experiences; half way through his story I'd offer to make a coffee, followed by the rest of the story and a couple more, by which time the offending document was safely tucked beneath a stack of papers.

Yes, long yarns and even longer lunches are the key to minimizing nonconformities - in my experience.

Regards,
Simon

[just me]

I am the master at derailing a good thread with a crass comment.

Dear Simon,

This comment described my feelings as well. I fear, however, that I kill of the thread rather than just derailing it.

That's why "silence is golden" seemed to be a good approached for "not to specialist" fellow members like moi.

[Simon]

This comment described my feelings as well. I fear, however, that I kill of the thread rather than just derailing it.

That's why "silence is golden" seemed to be a good approached for "not to specialist" fellow members like moi.

I don't think that applies to you JM. Personally I'm OK at systems but when it comes to microbiology I have to sit back in awe and learn. It's actually quite nice though. I think we should all resolve ourselves to make comment in threads without fear; I know members can do it on these forums. Even if it is just to provide feedback and encourage a poster who has made an intersting post (even if we don't fully understand it). Everyone likes (needs) feedback.

COME ON LURKERS JOIN IN!!!

Regards,
Simon

[okido]

Hi Simon,

I am member on the Dutch forum and try bring some life into it.
But is it is not taking off.
Annually there are 4-5 meetings were a subject is discussed with a specialist, attendance 20 to 30 people.
Direct mailings and mouth to mouth advertisement is the major ingredient in the tiny Dutch/Belgium market.

Remember to share good fortune with your friends, Okido

[Simon]

Hi Simon,

I am member on the Dutch forum and try bring some life into it.
But is it is not taking off.
Annually there are 4-5 meetings were a subject is discussed with a specialist, attendance 20 to 30 people.
Direct mailings and mouth to mouth advertisement is the major ingredient in the tiny Dutch/Belgium market.

Remember to share good fortune with your friends, Okido

Thanks Okido, can we take a look (link)? I know most of us don't understand Dutch, but for interest.

Cheers,
Simon

[okido]

Hi Simon,

The link:://www.platformvoedselveiligheid.nl/


Goodluck, Okido

[Simon]

Hi Simon,
The link:://www.platformvoedselveiligheid.nl/

Thanks Okido, the "translate this page" feature does not work on the site, so unfortunately I could not read anything. Also I wanted to register on the forums to have a closer look, but I could not find the path. Is there a charge to be a member?

Regards,

Simon

[okido]

Hi Simon,

I checked and indeed there is a charge now , it was free when I joined.
Probably this feature scares away lot's of traffic.

Rember to share good fortune with your friends, Okido

[Simon]

Hi Simon,
I checked and indeed there is a charge now , it was free when I joined.
Probably this feature scares away lot's of traffic.

I think so Okido. As you can imagine I visit many discussion forums to learn how they do things so as I might improve this place.

From what I see not even huge forums with tens of thousands of members and millions of posts charge their members for the privilege of posting. The only one I know that do charge is webmasterworld.com. The reason why they can charge is because they are the world authority on Search Engine Optimisation for websites and they provide business critical information to an audience that is desperate for this information to improve their website listings and their business profitability.

Not many can or would even dare to try. I think it is a very bad move for an unestablished forum.

Regards,
Simon

[Max]

Hello all,

since Simon is trying so hard to get people to participate in the discussions of this forum, I'll try to switch from "lurker" to "active member" and take part in the discussions to show that these efforts are not useless!!

So first of all, here is a link to a french site (I don't know if there are many people speaking or at least understanding french):

http://www.liste-hygiene.org/

It is actually an archive for all the posts of a yahoo discussion group generating about 30-40 messages per day. Maybe this could be interesting for you Simon since I think that this is (at least) your target for this forum. So, even if it is not really a forum, you can have a look...

Then I also have a question which was also treated on that discussion group but I was not quite satisfied with the answers:

We are washing an disinfecting vegetables by using chlorine (eau de Javel) in powder form. Is there a regulation, law, etc. saying that these products have to be approved for food contact like there is for cleaning products (EC Regulation on biocides)? Which chlorine is it best to use (liquid or powder) in terms of activity against microorganisms?

Max

[Simon]

Since Simon is trying so hard to get people to participate in the discussions of this forum, I'll try to switch from "lurker" to "active member" and take part in the discussions to show that these efforts are not useless!!

Thank you Max you have made me smile.

Thanks also for the link to the French discussion group I was not aware of it and yes this is the level of activity to which we aspire. There is also a similar food safety discussion group based in the USA. I think this type of Listserve discussion group has been going a long time hence their popularity. What I do not understood is that the format is very bland and simple. Maybe people do not want all of the 'whiz bang' features of a forum like this and simply want to receive topics direct to their inbox rather than logging onto the net - that said you can subscribe to forums here to receive a weekly digest or instant notification of new topics and even new posts.

Is the French discussion group still active or is it just an archive Max?

So as not to get missed I have split your Chlorine question into a separate topic here:

Advice on using chlorine to wash and disinfect vegetables

Regards,
Simon

[Max]

Simon,

when I look at the almost 200 new emails I received during last week when I was on holiday, I would say that " yes the discussion group is still active...". The topics that are discussed are added weekly or so to the archive site.

Yet I think that even if the number of messages is quite bigger than on this forum, their problem seems to be the same: a lot of people read but only a few actively take part in the discussions...

Now the difference seems to be that on this site, there is a lot of discussion between FSMS auditors and few "everyday process questions" of quality managers if you see what I mean. I think that this could be the reason why many people just don't feel competent enough to participate.

[yorkshire]

So first of all, here is a link to a french site (I don't know if there are many people speaking or at least understanding french):

Max,

Que voulez-vous dire ? En Angleterre nous parlons, et comprenons, français très bien. Nous ne parlons pas français quand les Français sont près.

Bienvenue à IFSQN

[Simon]

Simon,
when I look at the almost 200 new emails I received during last week when I was on holiday, I would say that " yes the discussion group is still active...". The topics that are discussed are added weekly or so to the archive site.

Yes it does seem pretty active Max. Do you know how many members they have and how long the group has been going?

Yet I think that even if the number of messages is quite bigger than on this forum, their problem seems to be the same: a lot of people read but only a few actively take part in the discussions...

That is not a problem as long as there are enough modest posters to keep the forums fresh and interesting. If not it can become hard work for the core active members who contribute time and effort to posting often without any feedback. I personally find feedback (of any sort) a very powerful motivator, I think most people do.

A few statistics for you:

1,432 forums members.

of which:

1,000+ made 0 posts
275 made 1-9 posts
52 made 10+ posts
8 made 100+ posts

of the 8 mentioned 100+ posters 5 are no longer active.

Now the difference seems to be that on this site, there is a lot of discussion between FSMS auditors and few "everyday process questions" of quality managers if you see what I mean. I think that this could be the reason why many people just don't feel competent enough to participate.

Being so close I hadn't thought of it this way, but yes I tend to agree. More effort needs to be done to market and open the forums to the wider food safety community. Food for thought - thanks.

Simon

[just me]

Aghh! Please don't offend the experts JM.

Apologies Simon. Thought I should bring it here rather than to "derail" the discussion again.

What I meant was that many in this forum are experts in their own field of expertise, but not many may be as well "informed" as a microbiologist.

Noted that when we train (which we do in some part of our working life), we say "There is no such thing as a stupid question" to encourage response from the attendees. But I have an inkling feeling that "there is such a thing as a stupid statement". May be being a lurker is not that bad choice afterall, rather than to offend the experts and have them not contributing to the forum anymore.

My personal views, apologies again if it is offending. Might consider myself ?.

[Max]

Yorkshire,

that's not a problem for me as I am not a frenchman anyway ;-) I've just joined that group...

I come from Luxembourg. Anyone ever heard of this tiny little country or do you at least know where it is? Even if we are neighbors of the french people, there is hardly anyone in France that knows. They think it is a part of Germany...
Now this is something you should NEVER tell us!!!

Yes it does seem pretty active Max. Do you know how many members they have and how long the group has been going?

The first messages seem to have been posted in february 1999, so it has been existing for quite a long time (don't know how long this forum is online?!). Currently, there are 2900 members generating about 800 posts a month in 2006...

of the 8 mentioned 100+ posters 5 are no longer active.

Well let's hope that there will be a few other "lurkers" to join the discussions then...

Edited by Max, 17 August 2006 - 05:30 AM.

[Simon]

Apologies Simon. Thought I should bring it here rather than to "derail" the discussion again. What I meant was that many in this forum are experts in their own field of expertise, but not many may be as well "informed" as a microbiologist. Noted that when we train (which we do in some part of our working life), we say "There is no such thing as a stupid question" to encourage response from the attendees. But I have an inkling feeling that "there is such a thing as a stupid statement". May be being a lurker is not that bad choice afterall, rather than to offend the experts and have them not contributing to the forum anymore.

My personal views, apologies again if it is offending. Might consider myself ?.

Banned? Absolutely not, you've got to be kidding - remember we need all the members we can get.

I agree that fear to some degree prevents lurkers from asking or responding to questions. Fear of saying or asking the wrong thing, fear of the software, fear of being identified. What we have to do (and I believe we do it well here) is make the forums as open and friendly as possible. I don't think anybody has been shot-down for asking a 'silly' question or for making an incorrect statement, so there is no real basis to the fear. You haven't offended anyone JM, moreover we value your opinion - don't ever be afraid to state it.

Yorkshire,
I come from Luxembourg. Anyone ever heard of this tiny little country or do you at least know where it is? Even if we are neighbors of the french people, there is hardly anyone in France that knows. They think it is a part of Germany...
Now this is something you should NEVER tell us!!!

Yes I know you; you're that small country we always struggle to beat at football. Mind you we did OK last night against Greece 4-0. You obviously speak French and English Max, so what is the native language of Luxembourg - German?

The first messages seem to have been posted in february 1999, so it has been existing for quite a long time (don't know how long this forum is online?!). Currently, there are 2900 members generating about 800 posts a month in 2006...

That is one heck of a lot of posts per member. In answer to your question this forum has been online since January 2003.

Cheers,
Simon