11 replies to this topic

[Snitzel]

Good day all,
its been a long time since I joined but this is my first post!!
Anyway, I work for a meat processing company. One of our recent activities is to outsource production of pastry like products with our saucages, hams etc. Yesterday, I paid a visit to a prospective manufacturer of pastry. I was concerned with the level of hygiene since there was flour almost everywere not to mention dough residues stuck in funny places.
The QA manager there told me that this is normal since the standard daily cleaning does not include any thourough cleaning of the mixing and forming machines. They only perform a thourough cleaning and sanitation once a week. The pastries are not cooked or fried and the plant is condidered as a low risk plant
My questions are:
1. Is it typical to leave flour and dough hanging about for a week or so?? (I didnt notice any moulds growing anywere)
2. What is the designated way to clean flour and dough residues?? the QA man told me that they blow the flour residues with air and then remove the residues using spatulas. Afterwards, they wash and sanitise everything)
All this seem a bit far fetched for me since I' ve never worked in a low risk envinoment. I do not like the idea of using high pressure air to remove flour residues since you dont actually remove it rather than displace it. It would make more sense to me to use a vaccum cleaner!!
Thanks in advance and sorry for the long post

[Marco]

Hello Snitzel,

Replying to point 1 I think it depends on the size of the operations but having worked in a large bakery I can tell you that even though we used to clean quite often you still can see dough hanging around (although not for as long as a week).

Regarding point 2:
We used high pressure water to remove dough from inside the mixers between two different products;
We also used hoovers mainly for the flour but I haven't seen any high pressure air;
The use of spatulas is also common to remove dough from surfaces.
Usually moulders were cleaned with spatulas between different products and the deep cleaning (wet, dry, vacuum) around the plant was done once a week.

Personally I wouldn't like to have flour everywhere as it also is an H&S issue (although this is not your focus) but I don't know your product well so I have attached a few documents and a link for your reference that may be a useful reading.
http://www.essind.co...tline.htm#daily

Regards,
Marco

Attached Files

•  Industry_Guide_to_GHP___Baking.pdf   777.66KB   253 downloads
•  s48.pdf   82.84KB   194 downloads

Edited by Simon, 11 January 2009 - 08:42 PM.

[Jean]

Dear Marco,

Thanks for the attachments.

[Snitzel]

Your input was enlightening Marco, thank you very much for the attachments

[AS NUR]

thanks MArco.. that give me more knowledge on hygiene

[Sthembiso]

thanks Marco thats an in depth attachemnet and has made good reading for me and will help me in my consultancy

[SNAILRAIL]

Hi Snitzel

The problems I always found was that bakeries are full of flour dust. Now add water to the mix and agitate. You now have dough!! Its very difficult to clean from certain types of machines.

Is it typical to leave flour and dough hanging about for a week or so?? (I didnt notice any moulds growing anywere

Alot of bakeries (including my own) hardly shut down at all Mon-Fri, so we have a policy of "Dry Clean" during those days. At the weekends a complete Wet Clean of the lines happens and a verification of " Visbally & Physically Clean". Another problem with wet cleans during the working week is that Cotton Top belting is used on many types of bakery machinery and takes many hours to dry.

One thing I would say would be to have a good look at the companies Pest Control records. Check that they have pheramone traps located fairly around the site and look for moth counts. Flour moths are a real danger in dusty enviroments..and once they take hold you will almost certainly find that parasitic wasps will follow....so you now have 2 flying insect issues.

High pressure air lines is the only really practicle way to remove flour dust build up. The problem with hoovers is how to discharge the huge static build up that occurs as flour dust passes along the Hoovers hosing.
Airlines to remove flour is an industry norm.

[Charles.C]

Dear Marco,

Just got round to reading yr attachments, particularly first one. Once again, thank you for sharing. Like the previous posted comments, I found some of the content fascinating, and not readily available elsewhere. However I did feel that there are some ideas within the document which are not in line with what i wud hv thought was standard practice in general HACCP at this time. It may be that the reason is (was?) that this document is designed to meet a specific legal requirement but I noticed things like -

1. No mention anywhere I could see of pre-requisites.
2. No mention anywhere of validation.
3. Baking CCP only mentions insufficient time as the hazard in the worked example.
4. Debatable (IMO ) choice of CCPs, eg -

Opening of a flour bag could result in a piece of the stitching from the neck of the bag or a piece of flour bag becoming detached and falling on to the top of the flour. In this instance, the visual inspection of the flour prior to tipping into the mixing bowl and the removal of any contamination present is the Critical Control Point. There is no other stage in the process where this contamination could be seen and removed.

Maybe this is typical of HACCP as applied in the baking industry but somehow I doubt it. Or maybe I am wrong ?. Has been known to occur.

Regardless yes or no, still a very useful document.

Rgds / Charles.C

PS Not a bakery person but with regard to the original question, I find it difficult to believe that significant residues as mentioned wud be accepted as routinely visible, particularly if spotted by an auditor. Or is there some unwritten rule of thumb practiced in this case, eg low / medium / high "contamination". The nearest I hv come to a conventional bakery was a factory producing coatings for batter and breading applications. They claimed to use only dry cleaning procedures and their equipment seemed faultlessly clean (although was an announced visit).
I hv a feeling that pheremone type systems are limited to certain geographical areas perhaps .

[Marco]

Dear Charles,

Thanks for your very precise comments on the attachments. I have to say I did not focus on the safety part when posting this document but I thought it was really good in addressing the hygienic/cleaning side of the bakery operation.

However I did feel that there are some ideas within the document which are not in line with what i wud hv thought was standard practice in general HACCP at this time.

I agree with you on this point but the document is old and I doubt we can now address this to the authors.

It may be that the reason is (was?) that this document is designed to meet a specific legal requirement

Yes it was indeed. As stated on page 8 of the guide.
At that time HACCP was not a legal requirement although this is not an excuse for not doing/explain it properly.

Opening of a flour bag could result in a piece of the stitching from the neck of the bag or a piece of flour bag becoming detached and falling on to the top of the flour. In this instance, the visual inspection of the flour prior to tipping into the mixing bowl and the removal of any contamination present is the Critical Control Point. There is no other stage in the process where this contamination could be seen and removed.

I think a sieve with proper mesh size and routinely sieve checks is the proper way. Having said that this document was intended for Retail and Wholesale Craft Bakeries and that may explain the inclination to simplify.


Charles.C,


Many thanks for your comments on my post.

[Simon]

Alot of bakeries (including my own) hardly shut down at all Mon-Fri, so we have a policy of "Dry Clean" during those days. At the weekends a complete Wet Clean of the lines happens and a verification of " Visbally & Physically Clean". Another problem with wet cleans during the working week is that Cotton Top belting is used on many types of bakery machinery and takes many hours to dry.

One thing I would say would be to have a good look at the companies Pest Control records. Check that they have pheramone traps located fairly around the site and look for moth counts. Flour moths are a real danger in dusty enviroments..and once they take hold you will almost certainly find that parasitic wasps will follow....so you now have 2 flying insect issues.

High pressure air lines is the only really practicle way to remove flour dust build up. The problem with hoovers is how to discharge the huge static build up that occurs as flour dust passes along the Hoovers hosing.
Airlines to remove flour is an industry norm.

I always interesting to hear practical experience so thanks very much for sharing Snailrail.

Regards,
Simon

[MJOAOCARDOSO]

Hi Snitzel

The problems I always found was that bakeries are full of flour dust. Now add water to the mix and agitate. You now have dough!! Its very difficult to clean from certain types of machines.



Alot of bakeries (including my own) hardly shut down at all Mon-Fri, so we have a policy of "Dry Clean" during those days. At the weekends a complete Wet Clean of the lines happens and a verification of " Visbally & Physically Clean". Another problem with wet cleans during the working week is that Cotton Top belting is used on many types of bakery machinery and takes many hours to dry.

One thing I would say would be to have a good look at the companies Pest Control records. Check that they have pheramone traps located fairly around the site and look for moth counts. Flour moths are a real danger in dusty enviroments..and once they take hold you will almost certainly find that parasitic wasps will follow....so you now have 2 flying insect issues.

High pressure air lines is the only really practicle way to remove flour dust build up. The problem with hoovers is how to discharge the huge static build up that occurs as flour dust passes along the Hoovers hosing.
Airlines to remove flour is an industry norm.

Hi! I came across you answer and am curious toknow how you do the "dry" cleaning process, I started working in a plant that produces frozen baked goods and pastry and we only do wet cleaning. as I worked for the past 18years in a cannery,I would like to have more info on your dry cleaning process if you can tel me! thanks

[Maillard]

Hi Snitzel

The problems I always found was that bakeries are full of flour dust. Now add water to the mix and agitate. You now have dough!! Its very difficult to clean from certain types of machines.



Alot of bakeries (including my own) hardly shut down at all Mon-Fri, so we have a policy of "Dry Clean" during those days. At the weekends a complete Wet Clean of the lines happens and a verification of " Visbally & Physically Clean". Another problem with wet cleans during the working week is that Cotton Top belting is used on many types of bakery machinery and takes many hours to dry.

One thing I would say would be to have a good look at the companies Pest Control records. Check that they have pheramone traps located fairly around the site and look for moth counts. Flour moths are a real danger in dusty enviroments..and once they take hold you will almost certainly find that parasitic wasps will follow....so you now have 2 flying insect issues.

High pressure air lines is the only really practicle way to remove flour dust build up. The problem with hoovers is how to discharge the huge static build up that occurs as flour dust passes along the Hoovers hosing.
Airlines to remove flour is an industry norm.

 

I used to work for a high volume commercial bakery and would concur with most of this except for the high pressure air lines if there are non-common allergens present in the product/material portfolio.  

 

We would have lines running continuous at times up to 7-days which would require "dry-cleaning" which is usually scraping and collecting excess dough buildup at various points in the days as production goes along so that they do not linger for too long to collect debris, moisture, etc.  Wet sanitation were scheduled days with plenty of time to allow for full drying of equipment.  The max run time was validated internally.  The design of the equipment would also factor as if there are excessive collection points during normal run that are hard to reach and may come into contact with fresh batches then that needs to be addressed.

 

Regarding flour around the facility, I would expect to see some level of scattered flour in batching areas at various points in the but proper storage, handling techniques, and housekeeping can certainly keep it too a reasonable minimum.