5 replies to this topic

[mat_CL]

hi!
Im new here, and im absolutely newbie!! so...this site is awesome!

We produce filled bakery products, and they are sold frozen.

Is it enough a microbiology certificate of "the filled" and package checking for not considerer a CCP of it? (in receipt)


what about filling, is the filling a CCP of it? (cross-contamination)

Someone thinks that there are not CCP!, because these product are made to be baked, so the microbiological charge is always going to reduce, add to this, we have a microbio certificate, and checking of package in the receipt.
Others thinks what if people doesnt bake them good¡?






sorry for my english
greeting !

[Simon]

Can any bakers help Mat with this query?

[Charles.C]

Dear mat_CL,

Not a baker myself. Only a consumer.

A typical product / process / target consumer flow would help to answer yr query but I presume your process does not include a thermal microbiological kill step.

Regarding yr question about "certificate" My instictive answer to yr main question is NO. This document may relate to a validation / verification but only the HACCP analysis determines whether need CCP or not.

The answer to "filling" as a CCP depends on yr product/process etc IMO.
Same comment for packaging.

Rgds / Charles.C

[mat_CL]

Dear mat_CL,

Not a baker myself. Only a consumer.

A typical product / process / target consumer flow would help to answer yr query but I presume your process does not include a thermal microbiological kill step.

Regarding yr question about "certificate" My instictive answer to yr main question is NO. This document may relate to a validation / verification but only the HACCP analysis determines whether need CCP or not.

The answer to "filling" as a CCP depends on yr product/process etc IMO.
Same comment for packaging.

Rgds / Charles.C

Hi there!
yes, the process doesnt include a thermal kill step. that is the problem
they are sold frozen. and they are baked outside the plant in points of sale

[Charles.C]

Dear mat_CL,

thks info.

yr filling question relates to the possibility of growth of pathogens.
yr packaging question relates to factors like allergens.

It is true that for certain raw materials a consumer cooking step is regarded as nullifying the possible initial existence of "some" pathogens but this does not give carte blanche to then using incorrect processing steps / processing delays.
l
So cannot really answer other queries without details of product / filllings / process.

Rgds / Charles.C

[GMO]

Good question; if the consumer bakes a product at home, is it their responsibility? Well yes and no. You wouldn't expect a chicken to contain no bacteria from raw, you expect a consumer to cook it properly; however, there are two caviats to this. Proper eviceration and innoculation of the flock will help reduce pathogenic bacteria in the finished chicken and also properly validated cooking times are on the packet (ie checked several times in control ovens to ensure core temperatures are reached.)

What I suggest with your bakery products is two approaches like with my chicken example above. Try and minimise contamination in your product by having good GMP standards on site, e.g. good cleaning standards, refridgerated storage for work in progress, rapid freezing. Have a target that you're working to. Remember, cooking will only reduce the bacterial load and may not eliminate it.

I'd then do some validation work on the cooking times to ensure that appropriate temperatures are reached and also do some micro testing on the cooked product if you can to prove the cooking is effective.

Last thing to consider is that consumers may keep the product after cooking and you need to make sure that it doesn't then become dangerous.

I hope that's helpful, just some ideas off the top of my head.