26 replies to this topic

[AS NUR]

dear all...

As i Know.. today we have another standard for food safety, FSSC 22000, the different think FSSC with ISO 22000 is PRP, FSSC use PAS 220 as PRP and I want to know the experiences from you all, that implement PAS 220 as PRP.. what your comment about it ?

IS PAS 220 suitable for all food product manufacturer ?

I hope more clear about pas 220 ...

[Abdul Qudoos]

dear all...

As i Know.. today we have another standard for food safety, FSSC 22000, the different think FSSC with ISO 22000 is PRP, FSSC use PAS 220 as PRP and I want to know the experiences from you all, that implement PAS 220 as PRP.. what your comment about it ?

IS PAS 220 suitable for all food product manufacturer ?

I hope more clear about pas 220 ...

Greetings to all the viewers/readers,

Clear explanation about PAS 220:

Established by DANONE, Kraft, Unilever and Nestle, They in partnership with the Confederation of Food and Drink Industries (CIAA) sponsored the development of the PAS.

for me PAS 220 and ISO 22000:2005 (clauses and sub-clauses of 5.7, 7.2, 7.3.3, 7.3.4, and 7.3.5) looks almost similar.

The new scheme FSSC 22000 is specific to food manufacturers, while ISO 22000 can apply to manufacturers as well as any other type of organization in the food supply chain.

Also follow the link below to know more about it:

http://www.dnv.com/b...tcm4-349388.pdf

Edited by Abdul Qudoos, 02 July 2009 - 07:31 AM.

[AS NUR]

dear abdul qudoos..

do you use PAS 220 inyour manuacturing? what the benefit of pas 220 for your system?

[Abdul Qudoos]

dear abdul qudoos..

do you use PAS 220 inyour manuacturing? what the benefit of pas 220 for your system?

No we are not using PAS 220 in our manufacturing, already we acquired ISO 22000:2005 and hence we don't feel to go for FSSC 22000.

[Simon]

Anyone using or plan to use PAS 220?

[AS NUR]

No we are not using PAS 220 in our manufacturing, already we acquired ISO 22000:2005 and hence we don't feel to go for FSSC 22000.

I heard that if we want to export to europe especially to dutch, better we hold FSSC 22000.. So i want to know from the people who have experience or implement pas 220..

[Charles Chew]

I heard that if we want to export to europe especially to dutch, better we hold FSSC 22000.. So i want to know from the people who have experience or implement pas 220..

I have recently conducted a training on PAS 220-2008 on its interpretations and relevancy in complimenting 7.2.1 and 7.2.2. of ISO 22K.

PAS 220-2008 basically outlines the basic hygiene infrastructure and environment requirements to ensure users of ISO22k comply with what GSFI embodies. Matter of fact, the dynamic nature of a Food Establishment requirs a dynamic solution and approach. As such, IMO, pas 220-2008 is out-dated in its approach given the continuous streams of emerging food hazards and other concerns. Nevertheless it s a good read.

Charles Chew

[excellens]

Charles,

PAS 220 in my opinion is a good guide for PRP program development. One of the main problems encountered in SME is the lack of guidance for PRP (It's true we can always use the old and realiable Codex CAC/RCP 1-1969), but there are some new parts not covered by Codex worth of giving PAS220 a chance.

What I haven't truly figure out is if this will have any future as a "partner"of ISO22K in the FSSC22K.

At the end I belive many companies will forget ISO22K and just get BRC or IFS and forget all the Fuzz related to stablishing a Food Safety System and just focus in complying whichever standard their main customers ask as now the private standards are accepted worldwide (Through GFSI)

[AS NUR]

thanks for your post charles and excellent...

@ Charles.... Why you state the PAS 220 is out of date charles ? what the real approach of PAS 220

@ excellent.. so can I summary that PAS 220 is not enough to cover all of PRP requirement in Food and Beverage manufacture?

@ Charles and Excelent... Do you think this good enough to implement PAS 220 ? and do you have any experiences on that implementation ?



rgds


AS Nur

[excellens]

As Nur,

When we started with ISO22K we had many problems with PRP's, PAS helps a lot there, because it is more complete than Codex.

Codex is weaker in:

a. allergen control
b. supplier approval procedures
c. food defense, bioterrorism, etc.

To me it's more than enough, we are using it as the base for our system.

Regards

[Charles Chew]

I must place an apology here if I had misguided anyone on PAS 220-2008 as I may have been ahead of myself on this subject. I reaffirm that PAS 220 is a good read and a point of reference for those who require guidance for establishing PRPs. While basic fundamental PRPs need to be put in place during initial stages of implementation, we need to look beyond prescriptive guidance towards customizing our own dynamic needs including emerging concerns such as updating pallet management where "deca" was found in plastic pallets....

This will be determined and guided by histroical and concurrent data during your risk assessment / FSMS validations, verification etc vis-a-vis risk exposures where the relative PRPs that are needed to address these potential "hazard risks" can be purposedly designed to effectively achieve the level of process and product performances as you may have intended.

Circmstances that may negatively impact our FSMS is constantly threatening 24/7 and thats what makes food safety so exciting. Therefore, prescriptive guidance is useful but we have to go beyond this level, otherwise our FSMS may become irrelevant, obsolete and ineffective.

[AS NUR]

As Nur,

When we started with ISO22K we had many problems with PRP's, PAS helps a lot there, because it is more complete than Codex.

Codex is weaker in:

a. allergen control
b. supplier approval procedures
c. food defense, bioterrorism, etc.

To me it's more than enough, we are using it as the base for our system.

Regards

dear excellent..

Thank you for your replay... is any requirement for allergent control in PAS 220? i mean if we use Raw material that contain allergent material e.c Milk, do we need to state in our product label (product info) as "allergent" contain ?
And for supplier approval.. i think ISO 22K have clausul to control external comunication include Supplier, that purpose to assure safety of the product. so what is the major different with that ?
For food defense, do you mean that as same as food security system ?

[Abdul Qudoos]

I heard that if we want to export to europe especially to dutch, better we hold FSSC 22000.. So i want to know from the people who have experience or implement pas 220..

That is called 'DUTCH HACCP' -

The Foundation for Food Safety Certification has developed the FSSC 22000 certification scheme for food manufacturer food safety systems. The scheme is using existing standards for certification (ISO 22000, PAS 220 and ISO 22003) and the
certification will be accredited under the standard ISO guide 65 (process certification). Manufacturers that are already certified against ISO 22000 will only need an additional review against the PAS 220 to meet the requirements of this certification scheme. The scheme has been submitted for benchmarking and approval
to GFSI. Results are expected in the spring. The Foundation will launch a website (www.fssc22000.com) where the scheme documents and further information can be found.
source: http://www.ciesfoodsafety.com/



http://www.foodsafet.....SSC 22000.pdf

[AS NUR]

thanks for the reply abdul qudoos..

i just looking for manufacturer that have experience to implement pas 220 as PRP.. and is the pAS 220 suitable for all food company or just for big food company ?

[cazyncymru]

thanks for the reply abdul qudoos..

i just looking for manufacturer that have experience to implement pas 220 as PRP.. and is the pAS 220 suitable for all food company or just for big food company ?

i use it as a reference document...and we're a small company.

[FSSM]

Dear AS NUR,

This is part of the text in scope section at PAS 220:2008,

"Food manufacturing operations are diverse in nature and not all of the requirements specified in this PAS apply to an individual establishment or process.



NOTE Where exclusions are made or alternative measures implemented, these need to be justified by a hazard assessment. Any exclusions or alternative measures adopted

should not affect the ability of the organization to comply with these requirements..."

Check from page 15 - 20 of this attachment:



Certification scheme for food safety systems of Food manufacturing based on
ISO 2000: 2005 and BSI-PAS 220: 2008

PART II REQUIREMENTS AND REGULATIONS FOR PROVIDING CERTIFICATION  partII.pdf   194.72KB   131 downloads



In case you haven´t check it already, that might give you an idea of the extent of what will be required to your company to implement.

Regards,





FSSM

[AS NUR]

Thank you Charles, abdul qudoos, CAZ and FSSM.. I am sure i have more lighten from to you all... And last question is our company already certified by ISO 22000, And if we want to export our product to europe, is FSCC 22000 (ISO22000 + pas 220) mandatory document ? or ISO 22000 is enough ?

[FSSM]

They all are non-enforceable standards.

This is on page iii of PAS 220:2008,

"This PAS is not to be regarded as a British Standard, European Standard or international Standard. In the event that this PAS is put forward to form the basis of a full British Standard, European Standard or International Standard, it will be withdrawn."

I think it will just depend on your customer. As far as I have learned from this forum ISO 22000 and related standards are not so popular in Europe. Please anybody correct me if I´m wrong.



FSSM

[Abdul Qudoos]

Thank you Charles, abdul qudoos, CAZ and FSSM.. I am sure i have more lighten from to you all... And last question is our company already certified by ISO 22000, And if we want to export our product to europe, is FSCC 22000 (ISO22000 + pas 220) mandatory document ? or ISO 22000 is enough ?

No mention!

As for i know you can export to balkan countries in europe and western europe, I don't think so FSCC 22000 mandatory, ISO 22000 is enough to supply food products. Let's other says!!!

[AS NUR]

thank for your input Abdul qudoos and FSSM

[Tony-C]

As Nur,

When we started with ISO22K we had many problems with PRP's, PAS helps a lot there, because it is more complete than Codex.

Codex is weaker in:

a. allergen control
b. supplier approval procedures
c. food defense, bioterrorism, etc.

To me it's more than enough, we are using it as the base for our system.

Regards

IMO PAS 220 is rather flimsy, lacks detail and is more like a sales brochure. Yes it does cover areas not covered by CODEX and in reality a FSSC complaint system should combine the requirements of CODEX, PAS 220 and ISO 22000.

Regards,

Tony

[Esther]

Charles,

PAS 220 in my opinion is a good guide for PRP program development. One of the main problems encountered in SME is the lack of guidance for PRP (It's true we can always use the old and realiable Codex CAC/RCP 1-1969), but there are some new parts not covered by Codex worth of giving PAS220 a chance.

What I haven't truly figure out is if this will have any future as a "partner"of ISO22K in the FSSC22K.

At the end I belive many companies will forget ISO22K and just get BRC or IFS and forget all the Fuzz related to stablishing a Food Safety System and just focus in complying whichever standard their main customers ask as now the private standards are accepted worldwide (Through GFSI)

Dear Excellens

It is a bit late to reply your message but I feel that I have to say it:

I am very in line with you, specially with your last paragraph.

Best regards
Esther

[AS NUR]

afetr a long time.. so i have to say that PAS 220 is suitable for all of fod manufacturer.. it can help to define PRP.. so i think i have to find free PAS 220 Document , so i can make it as reference

[Tony-C]

With ISO 22002 being published I don't see a future for PAS 220 (They are more or less identical). I expect PAS 220 to be withdrawn at some stage and all references changed to ISO 22002.

Regards,

Tony

[Charles.C]

Dear AS NUR,

so i can make it as reference

This downloadable clone may be adequate for you - http://www.ifsqn.com...dpost__p__32938

(originally was straight dwl, now need a litle creative texting )

Rgds / Charles.C