11 replies to this topic

[Martinblue]

Hi All,



Is it mandatory (BRC Requirement) to keep copies(Soft/hard) of Obsolete Documents when new issue in circulation with new issue number or just logging the details in Document log is enough.

Please help!

Regard

Martin

[Buddy]

I have never had an issue with a BRC auditor for not keeping old revisions of documents. Having the revision history satisfied the document control requirements.

[Martinblue]

Thanks Buddy,

Revision history means issue number, date of issue and reason of change!

Reason of change for latest issue is ok or for all issues of same documents?

Please comment


Thanks

Martin

[Charles.C]

Dear Martinblue,

My auditor (not UK) wished to view a file of previous issues but did not appear to hv any particular idea about duration back. User diligence tends to rapidly thin out after initial enthusiasm (writer’s cramp) . Much easier if you hv an all-computerised set-up / package of course.

Strictly it should depend on the specific wording of the standard (nil ?) just like ISO 9001. For the latter, there are maybe more arguments over the documentation section than anything else however, IMEX, BRC auditors tend to be happy if you state what you will do and then demonstrably follow it, as long as it does not directly contradict the standard. People who already hv 9001 tend to hv a documentation overkill for BRC.

If you’ve never put together a general system before, the worst part IMO is usually all the random lab. procedures. Some people just stuff them all together into a separate volume under a blanket date (eg 1 day before the real thing). Depends on yr electronic options again.

Rgds / Charles.C

[Simon]

I think a running excel log of revisions is enough - easy to keep up to date and analyse / sort etc.

- document number
- document title
- revision number
- reason for change / details of change
- date of change
- editor / owner
- confirmation that obsolete documents removed from use

[Zeeshan]

Hi All,



Is it mandatory (BRC Requirement) to keep copies(Soft/hard) of Obsolete Documents when new issue in circulation with new issue number or just logging the details in Document log is enough.

Please help!

Regard

Martin

Hi Martinblue!

AFAIK, no standard (including BRC) requires to keep the copies (hard/soft) of obsolete documents. It depends on somewhat following factors.
1- Organization's requirement (expected future need to refer an obsolete issue during PD/R&D, re-engineering, etc.)
2- Stated or expected legal/statutory requirements.

Regard:
M.Zeeshan.

[Charles.C]

Dear All,

The BRC standard does hv a clause relating to obsolete documents although the exact fate seems to be left open.

If anyone is interested, here is a little general info. -

The 9001 / 2008 standard (I’m quoting since I don’t hv the standard myself) contains an “obsolete” provision which one website interpreted as –

Out-of-date documents or older versions of revised documents must be protected from unintentional use. This usually requires segregation or disposal of obsolete documents. Any obsolete documents that are kept for reference or other purposes must be clearly identified through markings, separate storage areas, or other means.

After a little 9001 googling, user opinions on the disposal of revised documents depended on various factors / personal preferences, eg recipes may be required to be referred again, possibly for legal reasons also.

Many interpretations agreed that keeping the obsolete document was not mandatory but there was one notable exception -
Some sources considered the obsolete document to be a record and therefore must have a retention time. Suggestions for the latter varied from 6months – 10 yrs – life of related device – last (1-3) revisions.

Rgds / Charles.C

[Tony-C]

Dear All,

The BRC standard does hv a clause relating to obsolete documents although the exact fate seems to be left open.

Many interpretations agreed that keeping the obsolete document was not mandatory but there was one notable exception -
Some sources considered the obsolete document to be a record and therefore must have a retention time. Suggestions for the latter varied from 6months – 10 yrs – life of related device – last (1-3) revisions.

Rgds / Charles.C

That is right for completed records. There is no obligation to keep obsolete documents, however, completed records related to product safety, legality & quality should be retained for a period taking into consideration the shelf life of the product (Including possible extension e.g. freezing), legal & customer requirements.

Regards,

Tony

Edited by Tony-C, 25 October 2010 - 06:37 AM.

[Charles.C]

Dear TonyC,

Perhaps I should hv posted the original quote as my re-statement was maybe confusing-

Hate to tell you this, but that old out of date document you want to keep a copy of is a record............It's a record of how you used to do something that is now being done according to another document....and you need to control it just as you would any other record.

Either way, one would hv thought that it would hv been much less traumatic for ISO to simply put the (any) requirement in the standard itself after 30 yrs or so !!

Personally speaking, I favour x-referencing the Obsolete Documents File, maintained by - Mrs Shred!

Rgds / Charles.C

PS actually, the hardest part of all this IMEX is to make sure obsolete documents are replaced.

[Tony-C]

Dear TonyC,

Perhaps I should hv posted the original quote as my re-statement was maybe confusing-

Either way, one would hv thought that it would hv been much less traumatic for ISO to simply put the (any) requirement in the standard itself after 30 yrs or so !!
Personally speaking, I favour x-referencing the Obsolete Documents File, maintained by - Mrs Shred!

Rgds / Charles.C

PS actually, the hardest part of all this IMEX is to make sure obsolete documents are replaced.

Noted and maybe a debate for another day as the question related to the BRC standard.

Regards,

Tony

[Charles.C]

Dear Tony,

Noted and maybe a debate for another day as the question related to the BRC standard.

You're absolutely right of course. BRC probably don't give a fig about such ISO minutiae as long as all their risk assessments are dutifully filled in. Individual auditors may hv a slightly more individual viewpoint though.

Rgds / Charles.C

[GMO]

Personally I would keep a copy electronically, either in a file of obsolete docs or if you have it (and I know I've gone on about it) QPulse is brilliant for keeping copies of old documents without taking up file space (nor mental capacity because it's done automatically!)

Gael should give me some cash for promoting this y'know... Any Gael salespeople out there want a part time sales person as of 2011???