11 replies to this topic

[Mar]

Hi,

I have a serious doubt in HACCP in coffee shops!!! I am currently developing a HACCP study for a little coffee shop. They have no CCP because they only prepare sandwiches of ham and cheese (bocadillos) and serve coffees (of course!). But now they bake in a little oven some frozen pastries (like crissants and ham and cheese puff-pastries), that are bought already frozen and that undergo no defrosting process - out of the frreezing unit and into the oven. The cooking process is 20 minutes at 250ºC.
This means I have a CCP in that HACCP sistem!
Since the cooking process is very strong, isn´t there some way of not registering every time they do it? I mean, how can I validate this cooking process?

Thanks!
xoxo, Mar

[Charles.C]

Dear mar,

I am impressed that your sandwich production has no significant hazards.

I deduce the ham in the sandwiches and the croissants is not the same, ie RTE vs non-RTE.??

You need some product temp-time data to correlate with the, I presume, quoted "oven" temperatures. Frankly, i am surprised the croissant is not carbonised.

Rgds / Charles.C

[Mar]

Hi Charles.C!
Thanks for replying.
In fact the sandwich production (cutting bread, spreading butter and introducing a slice of ham in the bread) has some hazards, but they are controlled by the pre-requisites program (general hygiene - a good hygiene plan and convenient detergent and desinfection program, personnel hygiene - wearing a disposable glove when doing so, ...). The Haccp study turned out with no ccp at this point.
But the oven cooking.... It turned out as a CCP! So, my academical question remains...how can i validate the oven cooking? Because this is a coffee shop!!! And personnel isn´t quite keen on registering temperatures for this. In fact, they do control cold temperatures, hygiene program, but it´s not the same with the oven temperatures, because, just like you said, it´s a "very strong treatment". I was surprised with it to!
So, Charles. C, i would like to know the step by step for validating this oven cooking! Can you help me please? :helpplease:And remember that it´s a coffee shop.
Xoxo,
Mar.
PS - In Spain all our ham´s are smoked, so RTE.

[Charles.C]

Dear mar,

The point to my question was, what's the 250degC for ? I now deduce only for baking "bread" unless there is something else inside?
This is why people normally ask for a process flow chart. .

You validate by showing that the core temp. reaches a certain temp for a minimum time or an equivalent pair. For most meat situations in EC, the criterion is defined on L.monocytogenes and is 70degc / minimum 2mins. This is also equiv. to something like 80degC for a few seconds from memory. Baking process I don't know + Spain may have a regulatory requirement of its own also. The core temp. can be influenced by other things - oven power, starting temp., number of items in oven ? Requires use of a thermometer, eg calibrated thermocouple !!
I suppose if you can find an equivalent set-up in the literature, this might work as a validation but normally there is no avoiding some measurements.

Actually i wondered if the chilled storage temp.for yr sandwich might be a CCP, especially if you keep >1 day. Maybe you only prepare it when you see a customer ? (And Smoked ham is shelf stable at ambient temperature then??)

Rgds / Charles.C

[Mike Green]

I think from a food safety standpoint it is best to get away from talking about time/oven temp combinations and refer only to (final cooking) core temp of the food-?- as Charles C says 70 degrees core temp for two minutes would do the job- there is some good research out there but i can't see how it can be validated/verified without some measurements being taken-but once done IMO-they certainly would not need to probe every pastry (which I think is maybe what your client is concerned about rather than the validation process itself?)

mike


just for background as talking mainly about preparing pastries from scratch (from New South Wales Food Authority 2009)


My link

[Mar]

Hi CharlesC. and Mike Green!

Thanks for your replies! But i still have some doubts....
1. To validate this CCP (oven cooking) I will need to do some time-temperature checking, right?
2. How many monitorings will i have to do untill i consider it validated?
3. How do i write it down on the haccp plan? I mean, i already knew the pair (time-temperature) for L monocytogenes, but how do i write it (along with the time-temperatures monitored during validation) in my plan?
4. Will i have to write a simple protocol for validation (as an anex to haccp plan)?
5. What do you mean by IMO? i´ve seen it before in the forum, but don´t know what it means....

And yes, the sandwiches are only prepared when the customers order for it. And the ham and cheese for the bocadillos are keep in the fridge untill then!

Thanks!
Xoxo,
Mar.

[Charles.C]

Dear mar,

Yes, doubts are good

1, 4 = yes
2 it depends on yr input mix / results and maybe auditor. One approach is to select the most difficult to bake input, eg biggest croissant, and do maybe triplicate runs.
3. Sorry but baking / Spain not my knowledge base. I suggest you confirm what precise requirements apply to your product, ie for the people who are going to audit yr data.
5. IMO = In my opinion

Rgds / Charles.C

PS this extracted piece of a model haccp plan for RTE ham might interest you, -

 CCP storage, RTE, non-shelf stable ham.doc   140KB   75 downloads

[Mike Green]

Dear Mar
As CharlesC says- how many runs you have to do will depend entirely on the results of your first test- and if you get a lot of variance(or not) -If it were me, I would also consider the effects of oven fully loaded with product vs lightly loaded( a full oven of frozen pastry may significantly reduce the initial oven temp) and the effects of a mix of pastries vs one type in the oven at any one time and variance between different shelf positions in the oven

But that's just me!

Regards

Mike

[Mar]

Hi all!

So, I deduce from your replies that i´ll have to check some batches of oven cooking for time-temperature...
what do you think of the following: check 1 month of batches just to make sure that the cooking time-temperature is more than 70ºC/ 2 minutes. then in the Haccp study, i´ll metion the cooking step controled by the PreRequisiteProgram, since it was validated before. And it may be interesting to mention that the cooking step has no record associated, since it was validated....
IYO (In your opinion, ) is it correct?
xoxo,
Mar.

[Charles.C]

Dear mar,

The required depth of yr studies will likely depend on (a) to whom you are submitting yr anticipated finished document and (b) regarding compliance to what standard.

If your posts are referring to recent (approx. 2004) EC food hygiene directives, here is an example of part of the UK’s freely downloadable assistance packs for “small businesses” which I guess includes facilities like yours.

 sfbb catering - sfbbfullpack-1.pdf   5.01MB   87 downloads

You will see that the whole thing has been deliberately interpreted in a technically simplified form but nonetheless is considered an officially acceptable format with respect to the EC directives.

Unfortunately, I don’t know if these comments / equivalent documents are relevant or not in Spain.

If you are required to present an in-depth HACCP document such as indicated by yr prerequisite / validation questions, I think you are going to hv to read something like the Codex document on HACCP in detail or other standard works if specified by yr local regulations. I don’t know yr current HACCP training ? (no offence intended, technical backgrounds vary and it may be important) ?

Rgds / Charles.C

[Mar]

Hi Charles,

well, i was not offended with your question! the truth is i´m now starting to work by my own means and i finished college just 2 years ago . That´s why my technical background ans experience seem so "light"!

But if you allow me to reply, i honestly think my question is pertinent, because cooking is the most expedict way of eliminating biological hazards and oven cooking is a process step (for the frozen pastries). Since we have the time-temperature pair of 70ºC/ 2 minutes for controlling Listeria monocytogenes in RTE, refered in all GMP guides, and my process step occurs in so much more time and temperature, I deduce that all L monocytogenes is eliminated. so its a CCP! But it seems rather complicated / upsetting to obly the food attendant to register T´ and tº everytime he bakes! Because it is obvious that it is undercontrol, or elese the pastries won´t look good or edible!

So, and again, my original doubt is about writting this down in the haccp plan, in order to present it to a local food authority, based on EC regulation 852/2004 (about haccp in food establishments).
xoxo,
Mar.

Dear mar,

The required depth of yr studies will likely depend on (a) to whom you are submitting yr anticipated finished document and (b) regarding compliance to what standard.

If your posts are referring to recent (approx. 2004) EC food hygiene directives, here is an example of part of the UK’s freely downloadable assistance packs for “small businesses” which I guess includes facilities like yours.

 sfbb catering - sfbbfullpack-1.pdf   5.01MB   87 downloads

You will see that the whole thing has been deliberately interpreted in a technically simplified form but nonetheless is considered an officially acceptable format with respect to the EC directives.

Unfortunately, I don’t know if these comments / equivalent documents are relevant or not in Spain.

If you are required to present an in-depth HACCP document such as indicated by yr prerequisite / validation questions, I think you are going to hv to read something like the Codex document on HACCP in detail or other standard works if specified by yr local regulations. I don’t know yr current HACCP training ? (no offence intended, technical backgrounds vary and it may be important) ?

Rgds / Charles.C

[Charles.C]

Dear mar,

So, and again, my original doubt is about writting this down in the haccp plan, in order to present it to a local food authority, based on EC regulation 852/2004 (about haccp in food establishments).

It might be worth asking them what they want ?

Note that there are alternatives to 70degC / 2mins, eg

 temp-time cooking.png   55.1KB   11 downloads
(  HACCP_CATERING.pdf   2.62MB   56 downloads )

here is a more heavyweight item, just for interest -
 haccp plan bread, dough making , - 07 Full paper Dinu-1.pdf   192.33KB   52 downloads

Rgds / Charles.C

PS here's yet another variation -

 baking haccp fletcher.png   85.31KB   13 downloads

(  Fletchers bakery - HACCPanalysis.pdf   39.79KB   59 downloads )