29 replies to this topic

[Simon]

As per the title as a food company purchasing packaging what do you expect of your suppliers? Or as a packaging manufacturer...what micro testing do you carry out (if any), why do you do it, what do you find? Is it required in the standards you work to or by the laws of your country?

Thanks,
Simon

[cazyncymru]

I randomly check our food contact packaging (Foil lids, pots, wrappers etc)for TVC, Entro's, Staphs, Yeast & Moulds. I usually do it quarterly. On an annual basis i do Salmonella and Listeria.

I do this just show due diligence, especially as a number of these items come in to us in a cardboard box. I can bet my bottom dollar that some zealous retail technologist will ask if this has been done if there is an quality issue with product.

Don't worry Simon, yours were all ok!

Caz x

[Simon]

Thanks Caz

I have a similar programme with settle plates for TVC, Yeasts and Moulds and swabbing regime for TVC, Entro's, Staphs, Salmonella and Listeria. Was quartelry, but now 6 monthly based on good historic results. I know part of maintaining FDA IMS compliance requires product sampling/testing as I was once involved with that.

Just curious to see what everyone is or isn't doing as it's not specifcally a requirement of BRC/IOP.

Regards,
Simon

[shea quay]

I have designated micro on packaging as an S.E.P. (someone else's problem). Once it comes in wrapped and is correctly stored, that's my ass covered. I did one swab in 2012 and it came back clear. What will people want next, swabs of blue disposable towels for drying hands (ohhh! actually, that's a good one).

[cazyncymru]

I have designated micro on packaging as an S.E.P. (someone else's problem). Once it comes in wrapped and is correctly stored, that's my ass covered. I did one swab in 2012 and it came back clear. What will people want next, swabs of blue disposable towels for drying hands (ohhh! actually, that's a good one).

As long as you don't buy a listeria spreader!! (Sorry, i HATE those dyson hand driers!)I'd rather swab hand towels.....mind you, i do swab hands each month!

Caz x

[john123]

We've got certs from our package providers that the material is suitable for our intended use (namely poly box liners). We keep all liners safe and away from the production area and discard any liners that may have been compromised.

That said, I truly hope there isn't a push for microtesting on packaging materials that come from my approved vendor... Like shea quay quipped above about paper towels, we can literally drive ourselves into bankruptcy if we start microtesting EVERY surface that we can think of, and it gets more concerning if we have to defend not testing those surfaces.

[trubertq]

OMG!!! This is CCP!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Constantine]

In our country cardboard packaging manufacturers ought to check mesophilic aerobian bacteria and facultative anaerobic bacteria, colon bacillus and Salmonella.
As a plastic film manufacturer I check the film for mold and aurococcus.
We do it every six months and this seems enough - results are always ok.

[HappyCoin]

As long as you don't buy a listeria spreader!! (Sorry, i HATE those dyson hand driers!)I'd rather swab hand towels.....mind you, i do swab hands each month!

Caz x

Caz x
When you do hand swabs what do you test for?

[shea quay]

OMG!!! This is CCP!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AAGGHHH! You're RIGHT!!!! Between the TVC on the blue towel (I don't even have a specification with micro limits!) and the coconut based emulsifier in our hand soap and the risk of cryptosporidium in the water, the critical limit has to be that staff never wash their hands!!!

Totally disagree with Caz about the dysons. Have one in my local. Always tempted to put my, you know, in it by about my fifth pint. The life of a Quality Manager can be lonely at times.

I've always swabbed hands (or gloves depending on the industry) for TVC. Started dealing with a UK multiple last year who ask for Staph swabbing also. Same swab stick does both.

[cazyncymru]

Caz x
When you do hand swabs what do you test for?

I test for Staphs and entros

Caz x

[campbell]

Requirement for Micro testing needs to be understood. What are you testing & why? most packs are not in direct contact or recieve a significant heat treatment at some point. The only time it is appro[priate is to understand the cleanliness of food contact surfaces. It is all risk based so back to HACCP etc.

[abhagat]

Two thumbs up for Shae's posts. You should do stand up for Quality Managers.

The onus needs to be on the packaging provider.

Moreover, if you are doing product testing you are automatically testing your packaging

With the amount of testing we are already doing, what's next the auditors would like me to swab the delivery truck !!!

[oronogirl]

We are an aluminum container packaging manufacturer. Through the manufacturing process our product is heated to almost 400F three times. As part of our SQF certification, we sent 16 samples of our product out for ACC, Coliforms, yeasts and moulds. We had no growth on these containers. We have never been informed of a consumer complaint involving bacterial issues resulting from our packaging.

I can understand the viewpoint of the responsibility being that of the vendor but the issue we have is how many is enough? This was a point of consideration during our SQF audit as we only have a 16 point sample. When you make 7,000,000 containers a day ... our question is how many samples is enough? Keeping cost in mind!!



MaryK

[mesophile]

Hi All,

Personally I think it risk assessment plays a key role here.

If you can risk assess you packaging - including supplier, number of supplier non-conformances, packaging storage location, risk rating of food produced etc... then this should be able to determine whether your should micro test your packaging, and the frequency to which it should be done.

I have seen packaging stored out in the rain before as the supplier can only sends full container loads and the storage area wasn't large enough to house them all. I know, not ideal however this is something that should be considered.

We used to micro test packaging when producing RTE chilled dips and sandwich fillings on a monthly basis. Never had any problems however when a certain 5 letter retailer asked they were very impressed that we took this in to consideration. For the amount it cost us (10 x packs per month for TVC & Ents = £15/month) it was worth it.

Regards

Simon

[trubertq]

Two thumbs up for Shae's posts. You should do stand up for Quality Managers.

The onus needs to be on the packaging provider.

Moreover, if you are doing product testing you are automatically testing your packaging

With the amount of testing we are already doing, what's next the auditors would like me to swab the delivery truck !!!

Don't even joke about it, we got a N/C last audit for a trailer with a broken light fitting... not our trailer, not our light fitting.... hadn't happened that day......

[RMAV]

Don't even joke about it, we got a N/C last audit for a trailer with a broken light fitting... not our trailer, not our light fitting.... hadn't happened that day......

On what basis was the nonconformance? What section of what standard did it violate? What was the scope of the audit!?

[Charles.C]

As per the title as a food company purchasing packaging what do you expect of your suppliers? Or as a packaging manufacturer...what micro testing do you carry out (if any), why do you do it, what do you find? Is it required in the standards you work to or by the laws of your country?

Thanks,
Simon

Dear Simon,

Based on rather limited food manufacturing database, personally I have never encountered any (micro) packaging requests from either customers or auditors.
The ubiquitously guaranteed "Food Grade" seems generally remarkably well accepted, typically based on manufacturer having minimum ISO 9001 certification.

Maybe the location is significant, eg due diligence again. Or perhaps BRC does not require ?.

Thread linked below suggests that legislatorily, some limits do/may exist in Canada / US / Germany / Finland (+ Ukraine this thread perhaps?) but any actual enforcement activities seem unpublicised. Hence the OP I guess.

http://www.ifsqn.com...dpost__p__51211

Rgds / Charles

[trubertq]

On what basis was the nonconformance? What section of what standard did it violate? What was the scope of the audit!?

Section 4.15 Dispatch and Transport. Clause 4.15.3 BRC Global Standard for Food Safety Issue 6.

This was shortly after she had given one for not having the calculator on the Glass/Brittle Audit.........

[abhagat]

I guess I spoke too soon trubertq.

Did she break the light fitting herself like Dwayne The Rock Johnson. (SMASH!!) It's broken.

[carine]

i was wondering why plastic bag need to have mocro testing since there is no available food provided for the growth of bacteria??

[Marta Racz]

As per the title as a food company purchasing packaging what do you expect of your suppliers? Or as a packaging manufacturer...what micro testing do you carry out (if any), why do you do it, what do you find? Is it required in the standards you work to or by the laws of your country?

Thanks,
Simon

Hi Simon,

We swab our packaging materials (PET bottles, caps, cans ) monthhly. We check TVC, coliformes and yeasts and moulds.

BR

Marta

[Simon]

My conclusion is that for direct food contact packaging, although there is low likelihood of micro contamination, it is prudent to have a limited testing regime in operation as it provides feedback on all of our hygiene controls and also provides good data to show auditors, customers etc. This will give confidence of due diligence. The programme itself should be based on risk assessment of product, process, customers and past performance, complaints etc.

Thanks all,
Simon

[cazyncymru]

My conclusion is that for direct food contact packaging, although there is low likelihood of micro contamination, it is prudent to have a limited testing regime in operation as it provides feedback on all of our hygiene controls and also provides good data to show auditors, customers etc. This will give confidence of due diligence. The programme itself should be based on risk assessment of product, process, customers and past performance, complaints etc.

Thanks all,
Simon

Hi Simon

If you look at section 4 of TFMS, clause 4.2.1, a base clause , (although) talks about contingency suppliers, is as follows

4.2.1
Base
Contingency Supply
Where a contingency packaging supplier is required, the site must first contact the Tesco TM for acceptance.
Where agreed the site must have the following information about the product and supplier (as a minimum):
• A specification for the product
• A 3rd
• Test results (micro, chemical), where appropriate Party audit report and certificate
• Documentation to demonstrate compliance with any Tesco COPs
Contingency suppliers are those used at very short notice, generally as a one off due to approved suppliers being unable to supply.


It's probably why most of us do some type of micro testing

caz x

[Simon]

Maybe they should add into BRC/IOP V5.

"based on risk assessment a programme of micro testing blah, blah, blah..."

Regards,
Simon