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Does chlorine effect the rate at which water cools?


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#1 Git-R-Done

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 03:18 PM

For any chemists out there, does chlorine effect the rate at which water cools. My company recently started chlorinating our chill tanks and we have been having issues with product not reaching temp in time. 

Just wondering if there is a correlation or not.

 

Newtons Law of Cooling doesn't account for chlorine! lol 



#2 Snookie

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 04:43 PM

My chemistry is a bit rusty.......but I would think your chlorine would be around 100ppm if it is making food contact.  While it may change the freeze point of the water, that is not the issue.  A lot of chlorine might change the heat capacity...but would not think this amount of chlorine would do that.  So my "shoot from the hip" rusty answer is, I would not think so. 

 

Out of curiosity what are you trying to chill and what is the time difference?


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#3 Git-R-Done

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 05:01 PM

We are chilling sauces and it's a matter of 1-3 degrees. Not much, but enough to be a pain in the butt. lol



#4 Snookie

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 05:53 PM

What is the ppm of your chlorine?  Has the viscosity, ingredients or volume changed in your sauces?


Edited by Snookie, 22 October 2014 - 09:03 PM.

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#5 fgjuadi

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 07:43 PM

I don't believe that low level will affect the heating and cooling time (like how putting salt in your noodle water doesn't help it boil, it just makes water salty)

 

But a note of caution - If you are using chlorine + water + organic matter (food), you should be mindful of/ ask your chemical rep about  THMs - Trihalomethane levels. 


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#6 RG3

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 09:19 PM

Good point Magenta.

 

 Also Git-R-Done, Please make sure you're following the proper SOP and SDS and Product Data Sheet. Here's an example of an SOP:

 

Usage rate: 1 gal of CCS per 1000 gal of water in system.
Recirculation time: 4-6 hours
Flush time: 1-2 hours.
Technical Data
Appearance: Off-white powder
Active Ingredients: Chelating agents, alkaline builders, anionic surfactants
Stability: One Year Minimum
Rinse thoroughly with plenty of clean water before allowing any food to come in contact with cleaned surface.
CCS meets U.S.D.A. C-1 requirements.

 

There shouldn't be any chemical in your system in this case because you are thoroughly rinsing out the system before commencing production. You may want to test your rinse water for any lingering Chlorine with Chloride strips.

 

Your best ally here is to get with your chemical representative to better understand the effects your chemical may have.



#7 Git-R-Done

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 09:29 PM

Thanks RG3, the issue is not residual chlorine, its that production wants to add on a regular basis to the chill tanks while their full of product. Is there something i should be mentioning that may stay that decision. Dangers etc.. 



#8 Snookie

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 04:14 PM

I think some important points have missed here and this as much a physics question as a chemistry question.  

 

There are a number of variables here that may be effecting the answers because we are missing details.  We know that a cooling tank is involved and sauce is being cooled.  But the "devil is in the details".  Are we talking pans or vats in the cooling tank, or a pipe surrounded by the cooling tank......

 

From the chlorine perspective I assumed a low level to reduce microbial issues, but even larger amounts would most likely not be an issue because the addition of sanitizing amounts of chlorine to your system would not in any practical way change the rate at which your water solution comes to temperature.   Going down the rabbit hole, at least part of the way, what we are talking about here is Heat Capacity.  Heat Capacity is the ratio of the heat (energy), in this case, added to, a system to the resulting temperature change; expressed in joules per kelvin (written J/K).  This is not a chemical reaction, the heat capacity of a body [say a tank of water] is directly proportional to the amount of matter it contains (in volume, mass, moles, etc.); or put in simpler terms the number of [moles] of atoms in the system.  The whole thermodynamic physics of expressing Heat Capacity in theoretical terms is complex and beyond anything we need to get into here.  So, here it is in a nut shell: Because Heat Capacity is dependent on how much matter is present, the technical answer is that adding chlorine to the system puts more atoms (matter) in the system, therefor does change the Heat Capacity of the system.  But, let's look at what this really means out on the plant floor.  To look at the numbers, I do what all skilled professionals do - I look it up in my trusty CRC Handbook.   Looking at the Heat Capacity by volume (Volumetric Heat Capacity, the applicable measurement in this case) of pure water at fifty degrees Celsius, 4.182 kJ/kg*K, and sea water at fifty degrees Celsius and 30% salinity, 4.034 kJ/kg*K (I know, mixed units), how much difference does this really make?  Sea water is a good model for what we are doing here because oceanographically sea water salinity is thought of in chlorine content.
Between the two there is a Heat Capacity difference of 0.15 kJ/kg*K, or a ratio of 1.04, so the sea water will heat 1.04 times faster than the fresh water.  Yes, the addition of chlorine increases
the rate at which heat energy is transferred to the system.  But more to the point, the difference between the Heat Capacities of the two substances makes the difference of heating time trivial under plant conditions.  Also, 30% is 300,000 ppm, the ratio, of course, at around 100 ppm would even be smaller.

 

 

I don't believe that low level will affect the heating and cooling time (like how putting salt in your noodle water doesn't help it boil, it just makes water salty)

 

 

 

Adding salt to the water will increase the boiling point....but it takes so much salt  that MM is right.....but it does also change the Heat Capacity and from a physics point of view you have increased the number of atoms in the water which theoretically,  makes the water denser and therefore increases the number of collisions which increase the heat.  Is it enough to matter....am too rusty to know off the top of my head and did not go look it up.....

 

In the meantime, the answer is more likely in the process or recipe, not the chlorine assuming that all temp devices are calibrated properly and the numbers are real which is an assumption I made. 

 

 

 

Edited by Snookie, 23 October 2014 - 04:16 PM.

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#9 Snookie

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 04:15 PM

I think some important points have missed here and this as much a physics question as a chemistry question.  

 

There are a number of variables here that may be effecting the answers because we are missing details.  We know that a cooling tank is involved and sauce is being cooled.  But the "devil is in the details".  Are we talking pans or vats in the cooling tank, or a pipe surrounded by the cooling tank......

 

From the chlorine perspective I assumed a low level to reduce microbial issues, but even larger amounts would most likely not be an issue because the addition of sanitizing amounts of chlorine to your system would not in any practical way change the rate at which your water solution comes to temperature.   Going down the rabbit hole, at least part of the way, what we are talking about here is Heat Capacity.  Heat Capacity is the ratio of the heat (energy), in this case, added to, a system to the resulting temperature change; expressed in joules per kelvin (written J/K).  This is not a chemical reaction, the heat capacity of a body [say a tank of water] is directly proportional to the amount of matter it contains (in volume, mass, moles, etc.); or put in simpler terms the number of [moles] of atoms in the system.  The whole thermodynamic physics of expressing Heat Capacity in theoretical terms is complex and beyond anything we need to get into here.  So, here it is in a nut shell: Because Heat Capacity is dependent on how much matter is present, the technical answer is that adding chlorine to the system puts more atoms (matter) in the system, therefor does change the Heat Capacity of the system.  But, let's look at what this really means out on the plant floor.  To look at the numbers, I do what all skilled professionals do - I look it up in my trusty CRC Handbook.   Looking at the Heat Capacity by volume (Volumetric Heat Capacity, the applicable measurement in this case) of pure water at fifty degrees Celsius, 4.182 kJ/kg*K, and sea water at fifty degrees Celsius and 30% salinity, 4.034 kJ/kg*K (I know, mixed units), how much difference does this really make?  Sea water is a good model for what we are doing here because oceanographically sea water salinity is thought of in chlorine content.
Between the two there is a Heat Capacity difference of 0.15 kJ/kg*K, or a ratio of 1.04, so the sea water will heat 1.04 times faster than the fresh water.  Yes, the addition of chlorine increases
the rate at which heat energy is transferred to the system.  But more to the point, the difference between the Heat Capacities of the two substances makes the difference of heating time trivial under plant conditions.  Also, 30% is 300,000 ppm, the ratio, of course, at around 100 ppm would even be smaller.

 

 

I don't believe that low level will affect the heating and cooling time (like how putting salt in your noodle water doesn't help it boil, it just makes water salty)

 

 

 

Adding salt to the water will increase the boiling point....but it takes so much salt  that MM is right.....but it does also change the Heat Capacity and from a physics point of view you have increased the number of atoms in the water which theoretically,  makes the water denser and therefore increases the number of collisions which increase the heat.  Is it enough to matter....am too rusty to know off the top of my head and did not go look it up.....

 

In the meantime, the answer is more likely in the process or recipe, not the chlorine assuming that all temp devices are calibrated properly and the numbers are real which is an assumption I made. 

 

 


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#10 Snookie

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 04:17 PM

.

 

 

 

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