19 replies to this topic

[Siobhan123]

Hi all 

 

I have just started as a quality assurance manager in a new company and we are developing our HACCP. We cook and pack ready to eat meat products and was wondering how do I validate the cooking procedure and cooking temperatures. 

 

We use a conveyor oven with 2 teflon belts. We are currently achieving temperatures at around 80°C but a customer has asked for validation. I'm not overly sure what that means as I am fresh out of university with little/none experience (only general QA in an egg packing company)

 

Goggle is not being kind in offering any information as usual so any info you could give me would be great :) 

 

Siobhan

[SpursGirl]

Hi

 

Don't worry - there are always folks on here ready to help!

 

For a cooking validation you need to prove that the process you are using meets the critical limits your HACCP plan states (ie core  temp of 80C of whatever your CCP is for temp).

 

You need to run the validation at 'worst case' senario - ie the lowest/highest limits of your process - and you need to demonstrate that this is repeatable across all materials used in the process.

 

For the process you have described I would suggest running a validation covering:

 

• Run the larget cut size of meat at the lowest starting temperature that the material can be at (ie -18C, 0C, 5C) as described in your process
• Run belt at slowest speed and lowest temperature set point as described in your process
• Take core temperatures across a number of cooked products as they exit the oven across the whole width of the belt including start and end  of the run - core temps should hit your CCP temp.
• Repeat this process on ALL ovens - each oven may perform slightly differently.
• Repeat this with different cuts/species to ensure the process 'works' on all materials (ie chicken breast, chicken thigh, beef steaks etc)
• I would perform this in triplicate for your first validation.
• Make sure you repeat this process each time you introduce a new raw material, new oven, new cooking process (different time, belt speed etc), adverse lab results and also repeat the whole validation process (just once not in triplicate) on an annual basis.

Hope that helps!

 

S

[Mike Green]

this also may help

 

Centre for Meat Process Validation

 

Regards

 

Mike

[Snookie]

And if equipment is part of issue, this company has some of the coolest stuff.

 

http://www.thermoworks.com/

[trubertq]

Hi Siobhan,

 

There are companies in Ireland who will do this for you , as it is quite time consuming and you need to know what you're doing, it's quite expensive but if you have no experience in the area it is possibly better to get someone with experience to do it. I also think The National Food Centre in Dunsinea might be able to help you.

I'll have a chat with some of my clients for info during the week and I'll pm you.

[Charles.C]

Dear Siobhan,

 

Yr customer may well be asking you how you confirm that yr cooking yemperature/time is sufficient to "eliminate" the pathogens which are most likely to exist in yr raw material prior to cooking. The answer is typically achieved by evaluating the process lethality delivered by yr in/out heating profile in terms of the microbial reduction of the most heat resistant pathogen likely to be present.

The specific lethality requirement, eg so as to achieve a 6D reduction/L.monocytogenes, is likely to be defined by local regulations, maybe same as per UK. Theoretically, it's available from published tables.

The evaluation procedures involved do require some effort as previously indicated. Examples / references exist in some previous threads here. Mike's link is a recognized reference source in US, and probably elsewhere.

 

Rgds / Charles.C

[Mike Green]

Hi all 

 

I have just started as a quality assurance manager in a new company and we are developing our HACCP. We cook and pack ready to eat meat products and was wondering how do I validate the cooking procedure and cooking temperatures. 

 

We use a conveyor oven with 2 teflon belts. We are currently achieving temperatures at around 80°C but a customer has asked for validation. I'm not overly sure what that means as I am fresh out of university with little/none experience (only general QA in an egg packing company)

 

Goggle is not being kind in offering any information as usual so any info you could give me would be great :) 

 

Siobhan

 Siobhan,

 

You may also find the attatched (Ireland specific) info useful (if you haven't seen it already!)

 

Mike

Attached Files

•  heat chill ireland.pdf   515.94KB   344 downloads

[RG3]

Siobhan123,

 

   Just an FYI, your customer now is asking you to validate your CCP, but this is something that can be asked by a certified body for any GFSI scheme to comply with Principle 6 of HACCP. This is 2.3.1.4 of SQF which is a Major if not completed.

 

Examples of Verification Activities
A.Verification procedures may include: 1.Establishment of appropriate verification schedules.
2.Review of the HACCP plan for completeness.
3.Confirmation of the accuracy of the flow diagram.
4.Review of the HACCP system to determine if the facility is operating according to the HACCP plan.
5.Review of CCP monitoring records.
6.Review of records for deviations and corrective actions.
7.Validation of critical limits to confirm that they are adequate to control significant hazards.
8.Validation of HACCP plan, including on-site review.
9.Review of modifications of the HACCP plan.
10.Sampling and testing to verify CCPs.

 

 

SpursGirl hit it on the nose as far as the steps you need to take to validate.

 

But it may be a good idea to take the advice from trubertq, and using Mike Greens link as support documentation (The HACCP plan includes all relevant information needed to  conduct a hazard analysis) to comply with 2.1.3.2, 2.4.1.1 of SQF or 2.3.2 of BRC.

[Siobhan123]

Thanks everyone 

 

I had been talking to a consultant and they had said as we are using 2 teflon belts it can not be validated, the only way we can validate it is by micro results? 

 

 

Yr customer may well be asking you how you confirm that yr cooking yemperature/time is sufficient to "eliminate" the pathogens which are most likely to exist in yr raw material prior to cooking.

 

Yes Charles this is exactly why they are looking us to validate it.

 

Thanks for your help everyone :D 

[trubertq]

Thanks everyone 

 

I had been talking to a consultant and they had said as we are using 2 teflon belts it can not be validated, the only way we can validate it is by micro results? 

 

 

 

Yes Charles this is exactly why they are looking us to validate it.

 

Thanks for your help everyone :D 

Hi Siobhan,

 

micro can only verify , it can't validate, and I am not sure why teflon belts can't be validated to be honest......maybe someone here can enlighten us?

 

 

I have a number for you of a man who can validate but I tried to send a pm and it won't let me. I think you may have to have a certain number of posts.

my e mail is: xxxxxx.send me a message if you want this guys number.

Edited by Charles.C, 29 October 2014 - 09:26 AM.
email deleted

[Charles.C]

Hi Siobhan,

 

micro can only verify , it can't validate, and I am not sure why teflon belts can't be validated to be honest......maybe someone here can enlighten us?

 

 

 

Dear Trubertq,

 

It probably depends on the particular interpretation of validation / verification. There are many of course.

 

Apologies for deleting email address  but the site tries to avoid attracting spammers.

 

Rgds / Charles.C

[MQA]

Attached is Australian literature but handy all the same, as it follows the international HACCP principles.  

 

Refer to page 36 in the AS4696-2007 pdf.  

 

The other two are also quite handy.  

 

In Australia, listeria is a serious concern with ready to eat product.  

Attached Files

•  AS4696-2007.pdf   554.25KB   202 downloads
•  Control of Listeria - Guideline 03-2008.pdf   106.71KB   168 downloads
•  Retail PremisesMarch 2006.pdf   140.39KB   117 downloads

[din]

Hi,

 

Use this document for your validation

 

http://ucfoodsafety....iles/172961.pdf

 

By what I understand anywhere you put the meat products in between the Teflon belts it must cooked the food at the same target temperature of 80oC to  kill the pathogens. Since the contact time and temperature could vary anywhere on the teflon belts I supposed then you have to prove that this is not the case. I'll suggest that to draw a map in different zones to show where you put the meat products for cooking on the Teflon belts and the you do a microbiological testing for each and every zone where the food was cooked et voila ... through the micro analysis you can validate the cooking method time temperature and location on belt is appropriate.

 

Thanks

[Charles.C]

Dear din,

 

It's an excellent document on Codex's viewpoint of validation but the unfortunate reality is that one finds that many local regulatory systems / private FS standards implement their own interpretation/requirements, both conceptually and numerically for cooking parameters / validation. 

 

As noted in Post #2,  authorities usually agree that defining the worst case "lethality" scenario is crucial. 

 

The difficulty for factories with direct micro. measurements tends to be parameter, accuracy, time and cost although it's true that micro. challenge studies represent a primary validation route if one has the facilities. The lethality calculations commonly used by manufacturing plants for cooking processes rely on average "kill" factors determined from such studies.

 

Assuming product of same size/shape, many approaches  typically involve obtaining  product temperature/time  profiles at various places in the cooker to locate the "most heat resistant spot". Dedicated, self contained, embeddable "chips" exist for such activities although sets of TC probes can also be used and are obviously cheaper. The heating profile then yields the cumulative lethality achieved for the worst case location which can be compared with minimum requirements.

 

Rgds / Charles.C

[Boykie]

Hi All,

Really good information in this thread.

I'm due to assist in helping in the validation of materials new to the business and was hoping to 'pick the collective brain' on the best way to plan this out.

Most cooking validation procedures tend to be 'generic' i.e cook at worst case scenerio and submit samples for micro testing pre-cook and post-cook.

The idea is to achieve a specified log reduction of a specified pathogen.

My question is how do we determine what log reduction and what pathogen for newly introduced materials?

For example say we decide to blanch red cabbage, what micro testing suite would be ideal to validate the blanching process?

... or we decide to cook red rice or orzo pasta e.t.c - what micro testing suite (and log reduction) should we be looking for?

PS: This would be based on U.K law.

[Charles.C]

Hi All,

Really good information in this thread.

I'm due to assist in helping in the validation of materials new to the business and was hoping to 'pick the collective brain' on the best way to plan this out.

Most cooking validation procedures tend to be 'generic' i.e cook at worst case scenerio and submit samples for micro testing pre-cook and post-cook.

The idea is to achieve a specified log reduction of a specified pathogen.

My question is how do we determine what log reduction and what pathogen for newly introduced materials?

For example say we decide to blanch red cabbage, what micro testing suite would be ideal to validate the blanching process?

... or we decide to cook red rice or orzo pasta e.t.c - what micro testing suite (and log reduction) should we be looking for?

PS: This would be based on U.K law.

 

Hi Boykie,

 

I think you will find that UK is using L.monocytogenes/6D as the target for routine, atmospheric, generic cooking processes but some process situations necessitate alternative target species. IIRC, achievance of an instantaneous central core temperature (or slowest cooking point) of 75degC is a commonly used operational  "shortcut". (Not so easy if you have a stream of small objects on a conveyor belt IMO).

 

So the micro-testing suite for above would be based on L.mono. (IN/OUT)

 

IMEX "blanching" is not necessarily a 6D cooking procedure intended for RTE but maybe is  interpreted as such in UK ?

[Boykie]

Hi Boykie,

 

I think you will find that UK is using L.monocytogenes/6D as the target for routine, atmospheric, generic cooking processes but some process situations necessitate alternative target species. IIRC, achievance of an instantaneous central core temperature (or slowest cooking point) of 75degC is a commonly used operational  "shortcut". (Not so easy if you have a stream of small objects on a conveyor belt IMO).

 

So the micro-testing suite for above would be based on L.mono. (IN/OUT)

 

IMEX "blanching" is not necessarily a 6D cooking procedure intended for RTE but maybe is  interpreted as such in UK ?

Thanks Charles.

I must say I wasn't expecting such a quick response!

That would probably make sense for root vegetables.

The reason I asked the question is that I figured things like pasta would be unlikely to contain listeria (dry pasta, that is).

So, submitting samples pre and post cook would likely not show anything at all i.e null detection pre-cook and null detection post cook?

At the end of the day, it looks more like a validation that the correct temperature/time is achieved and not that it results in the necessary 6 log reduction.

[Scampi]

Siobhan, my background is in meat processing in Canada (RTE and RTC)

 

 

Yes, micro for this to prove the log reduction should go to an outside lab (unless you have your own in house certified lab) They will need samples from the same batch pre and post cook (i.e. raw to check existing levels and fully processed to validate log reduction)

 

The validation for the meat can be done in house rather easily for time/temperature. Place meat in ALL possible locations on each belt for each oven, mark the piece so you don't get mixed up and check the wrong one. And no, you won't be able to do this in a single day, it may take a month to complete. (i am wondering why it hasn't been done prior to your arrival there however)

You will need to measure by weight, thickness etc for EACH piece. Take the temperature prior (you may have a huge variance here) and time each piece precisely. Then record the internal temperature in the thickest spot (alternatively purchase data loggers that can withstand the over temperature, some are even wifi enabled and will automatically dump the data for you). Repeat this procedure under all conditions (belt speed to high, oven temp 5C lower than normal (worst possible scenario).

 

Then once all of that is done (again, this is not a quick process nor should it be) you can extrapolate the information from the data taking all parameters into consideration. Try not to make any assumptions about the process until the data is complete. If any of the pieces fail, you will have to repeat the series and tighten up the working parameters. 

 

I gather from your post that there is not an existing HACCP plan, this process is slow and arduous, plan well and execute slowly. If the process needs to change based on the documentation you gather, then it needs changed. Its better than the alternative.

[Charles.C]

Hi Scampi,

 

This is an antique thread. Name has changed + meat is now cabbage.

 

@Boykie,

 

The reason for choice of L.mono is that in a conventional cook process L.mono is considered (in UK) to be the most heat resistant species typically encountered. Other countries may disagree. It is possible that cabbage might be an exception which you should check but unlikely.

 

You are correct regarding micro except that at least negative data will not disprove yr hopeful intended log reduction.

 

The validation typically requires a choice of D-value for the target species/yr food matrix and a core temperature-time profile of the cooking process plus an integration at the end if the core temperature varies (which it usually does). Excel spreadsheets are freely available on this forum to do the integration if required. Or, as per previous post, you can invest in data loggers which should certainly simplify the maths.

Again as noted in previous post, size/temperature variations are relevant. IMEX (not cabbage or meat) the profile should initially be established/repeated for the largest size to be handled.

[Scampi]

Oh for heavens sake! Thanks Charles I didn't even realize or look at the date!!!!