Jump to content

  • Quick Navigation
Photo

Can we just determine CCP with hazard analysis?

Share this

  • You cannot start a new topic
  • Please log in to reply
8 replies to this topic
* * * - - 1 votes

ahmet

    Grade - AIFSQN

  • IFSQN Associate
  • 47 posts
  • 0 thanks
0
Neutral

Posted 09 November 2014 - 01:42 PM

Dear Charles;

 

Can we just determine CCP with hazard analysis?

Do we have to be asked of Decision Tree?

 

Rgds / Ahmet


  • 0

Charles.C

    Grade - FIFSQN

  • IFSQN Moderator
  • 20,542 posts
  • 5684 thanks
1,550
Excellent

  • Earth
    Earth
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:SF
    TV
    Movies

Posted 10 November 2014 - 06:12 AM

Dear Ahmet,

 

 I assume this query is for traditional Codex-type methodology. For ISO/FSSC-22000 the answer would be expanded due to the possibility of  aspects like designated  PRPs / OPRPs etc.

 

 

Can we just determine CCP with hazard analysis?

Yes you can except that the method has to, typically, be auditorially regarded as “logical”. For example, if based on  a determination of  "significant hazards"  it will likely be necessary to detail  how,  eg via a risk matrix/ defined criteria for a CCP.

 

Do we have to be asked of Decision Tree?

The choice of using/not using a Tree is normally up to you. This option is implied in the Codex haccp Guidelines.  However I have (rarely) seen use of a Tree  specified in an official  standard in which case probably no choice.

 

Rgds / Charles.C


  • 0

Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


Thanked by 1 Member:

ahmet

    Grade - AIFSQN

  • IFSQN Associate
  • 47 posts
  • 0 thanks
0
Neutral

Posted 10 November 2014 - 02:43 PM

Thank you Charles....

 
Have a nice evening...

 
ahmet

  • 0

Mi55V

    Grade - Active

  • IFSQN Active
  • 3 posts
  • 0 thanks
0
Neutral

  • Bahrain
    Bahrain

Posted 16 November 2014 - 08:31 AM

I did our HACCP plan on https://myhaccp.food.gov.uk

Very simple to use and every detail you need is completed, including decision tree.  You download your final report as a pdf document.


  • 0

Charles.C

    Grade - FIFSQN

  • IFSQN Moderator
  • 20,542 posts
  • 5684 thanks
1,550
Excellent

  • Earth
    Earth
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:SF
    TV
    Movies

Posted 16 November 2014 - 11:01 AM

I did our HACCP plan on https://myhaccp.food.gov.uk

Very simple to use and every detail you need is completed, including decision tree.  You download your final report as a pdf document.

 

Dear Mi55v,

 

Thks yr input.

 

I agree that this link does have some useful material.

 

Of course the analytical work in some typical CCP methodologies (eg  hazard analysis + risk assessment matrix + decision tree ) may be decreased if the 3rd component is excluded.

 

There is some  discussion/extracts on the FSA/UK approach in this thread, mainly posts (5-15) -

 

http://www.ifsqn.com...ery/#entry77547

 

Rgds / Charles.C


  • 0

Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


swanswal

    Grade - AIFSQN

  • IFSQN Associate
  • 38 posts
  • 7 thanks
3
Neutral

  • Australia
    Australia
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Infinite Improbability Drives

Posted 17 August 2015 - 02:01 AM

Charles wrote "Yes you can except that the method has to, typically, be auditorially regarded as “logical”. For example, if based on  a determination of  "significant hazards"  it will likely be necessary to detail  how,  eg via a risk matrix/ defined criteria for a CCP."

 

Hi Charles.  This subject is very topical for me at the moment..... 

 

So far, every food manufacturing site I have seen uses some form of decision tree or table which helps the HACCP team determine which process steps are CCP's.  Sure enough, last week I audited a site that has no such formal (objective, documented and enduring) approach to CCP determination, and instead, simply works by convening a meeting of the HACCP team where CCP's are determined by discussion.  Any comment on that approach?  Personally, it raised my eyebrows......


  • 0

Charles.C

    Grade - FIFSQN

  • IFSQN Moderator
  • 20,542 posts
  • 5684 thanks
1,550
Excellent

  • Earth
    Earth
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:SF
    TV
    Movies

Posted 17 August 2015 - 07:27 AM

Hi swanswal,

 

The audited Standard / specific situation may have some relevance.

 

Wellll, "Brainstorming" , IIRC, is mentioned as a possible option in (at least) one of the traditional haccp references for performing  hazard analyses.

 

But i doubt that  "hearsay" would solely be considered adequately logical from a Validation POV.

 

How are the CCPs / critical limits resulting from the "discussion"  documented / Validated?


  • 0

Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


swanswal

    Grade - AIFSQN

  • IFSQN Associate
  • 38 posts
  • 7 thanks
3
Neutral

  • Australia
    Australia
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Infinite Improbability Drives

Posted 17 August 2015 - 10:44 PM

Well Charles, the Validation/Verification piece was not tested (yet) as the discussion around CCP determination left me feeling well....concerned that they may not have determined the CCP's in an objective and consistent manner.  I therefore halted the audit.  I was concerned that the whole FSP may just be a reflection of how management saw risks in their business last year, and if a different group moves in, the new group could see things differently.  (I might add that I was conducting a 2nd party audit here, not 3rd party certification).

 

Laying my cards on the table, I believe it is important to understand clearly how an organisation determines important HACCP steps such as CCP determination, and I have difficulty accepting a group of managers getting into a room, discussing the process, and then deciding where CCP's need to be after necessary discussion.  I am not saying that they are not capable; I think they are.  It's more that the outcomes (at least in my view) are less predictable, and vulnerable to influence by more 'senior' people. 

 

I am encouraging them to review this practice and think about having a more structured and objective process in place; one that can be clearly articulated to anyone from the outside.  I however only can reflect on my views and hence my desire to get other opinions from my learned colleagues.


  • 0

Charles.C

    Grade - FIFSQN

  • IFSQN Moderator
  • 20,542 posts
  • 5684 thanks
1,550
Excellent

  • Earth
    Earth
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:SF
    TV
    Movies

Posted 18 August 2015 - 04:48 AM

Hi swanswal,

 

TBH I would have said that the Validation step quantifies the objectivity of the HACCP process with respect to  the determination of CCPs/Critical Limits/etc.

 

I have encountered the approach you mention in HACCP Workshops but only as a precursor to a documented formal, logical, validatable, hazard analysis. If the methodology you describe resulted in an absence of such evidence I agree with yr opinion.

 

To put it another way, too many boxes likely to be unticked. :smile:


  • 0

Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C




Share this

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users