Dear Charles;
Can we just determine CCP with hazard analysis?
Do we have to be asked of Decision Tree?
Rgds / Ahmet
Posted 09 November 2014 - 01:42 PM
Dear Charles;
Can we just determine CCP with hazard analysis?
Do we have to be asked of Decision Tree?
Rgds / Ahmet
Posted 10 November 2014 - 06:12 AM
Dear Ahmet,
I assume this query is for traditional Codex-type methodology. For ISO/FSSC-22000 the answer would be expanded due to the possibility of aspects like designated PRPs / OPRPs etc.
Can we just determine CCP with hazard analysis?
Yes you can except that the method has to, typically, be auditorially regarded as “logical”. For example, if based on a determination of "significant hazards" it will likely be necessary to detail how, eg via a risk matrix/ defined criteria for a CCP.
Do we have to be asked of Decision Tree?
The choice of using/not using a Tree is normally up to you. This option is implied in the Codex haccp Guidelines. However I have (rarely) seen use of a Tree specified in an official standard in which case probably no choice.
Rgds / Charles.C
Kind Regards,
Charles.C
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Posted 10 November 2014 - 02:43 PM
Thank you Charles....
Posted 16 November 2014 - 08:31 AM
I did our HACCP plan on https://myhaccp.food.gov.uk
Very simple to use and every detail you need is completed, including decision tree. You download your final report as a pdf document.
Posted 16 November 2014 - 11:01 AM
I did our HACCP plan on https://myhaccp.food.gov.uk
Very simple to use and every detail you need is completed, including decision tree. You download your final report as a pdf document.
Dear Mi55v,
Thks yr input.
I agree that this link does have some useful material.
Of course the analytical work in some typical CCP methodologies (eg hazard analysis + risk assessment matrix + decision tree ) may be decreased if the 3rd component is excluded.
There is some discussion/extracts on the FSA/UK approach in this thread, mainly posts (5-15) -
http://www.ifsqn.com...ery/#entry77547
Rgds / Charles.C
Kind Regards,
Charles.C
Posted 17 August 2015 - 02:01 AM
Charles wrote "Yes you can except that the method has to, typically, be auditorially regarded as “logical”. For example, if based on a determination of "significant hazards" it will likely be necessary to detail how, eg via a risk matrix/ defined criteria for a CCP."
Hi Charles. This subject is very topical for me at the moment.....
So far, every food manufacturing site I have seen uses some form of decision tree or table which helps the HACCP team determine which process steps are CCP's. Sure enough, last week I audited a site that has no such formal (objective, documented and enduring) approach to CCP determination, and instead, simply works by convening a meeting of the HACCP team where CCP's are determined by discussion. Any comment on that approach? Personally, it raised my eyebrows......
Posted 17 August 2015 - 07:27 AM
Hi swanswal,
The audited Standard / specific situation may have some relevance.
Wellll, "Brainstorming" , IIRC, is mentioned as a possible option in (at least) one of the traditional haccp references for performing hazard analyses.
But i doubt that "hearsay" would solely be considered adequately logical from a Validation POV.
How are the CCPs / critical limits resulting from the "discussion" documented / Validated?
Kind Regards,
Charles.C
Posted 17 August 2015 - 10:44 PM
Well Charles, the Validation/Verification piece was not tested (yet) as the discussion around CCP determination left me feeling well....concerned that they may not have determined the CCP's in an objective and consistent manner. I therefore halted the audit. I was concerned that the whole FSP may just be a reflection of how management saw risks in their business last year, and if a different group moves in, the new group could see things differently. (I might add that I was conducting a 2nd party audit here, not 3rd party certification).
Laying my cards on the table, I believe it is important to understand clearly how an organisation determines important HACCP steps such as CCP determination, and I have difficulty accepting a group of managers getting into a room, discussing the process, and then deciding where CCP's need to be after necessary discussion. I am not saying that they are not capable; I think they are. It's more that the outcomes (at least in my view) are less predictable, and vulnerable to influence by more 'senior' people.
I am encouraging them to review this practice and think about having a more structured and objective process in place; one that can be clearly articulated to anyone from the outside. I however only can reflect on my views and hence my desire to get other opinions from my learned colleagues.
Posted 18 August 2015 - 04:48 AM
Hi swanswal,
TBH I would have said that the Validation step quantifies the objectivity of the HACCP process with respect to the determination of CCPs/Critical Limits/etc.
I have encountered the approach you mention in HACCP Workshops but only as a precursor to a documented formal, logical, validatable, hazard analysis. If the methodology you describe resulted in an absence of such evidence I agree with yr opinion.
To put it another way, too many boxes likely to be unticked.
Kind Regards,
Charles.C
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