25 replies to this topic

[Steve A.]

I am looking at a anti-microbial spray for solid pieces of meat prior to grinding for sausages or ground beef patties.  This should significantly reduce the chance of bacteria being introduced into the ground meat from the surface.  The process uses Hydrogen Peroxide 3% spray and a second Vinegar (5%) spray.  The use of the two sprays, then rinsing with clean sterilized water should highly reduce bacteria on the meat surface.  

 

I am in the Philippines and my challenge for implementing this is finding Hydrogen Peroxide 3%.  The local suppliers, including the pharmacies, only seem to carry Hydrogen Peroxide 10% for cleaning wounds or a similar product intended for bleaching (hair?).  Would the Hydrogen Peroxide 10% for cleaning wounds be suitable if I dilute it to 3% by volume?  

 

I think that if I have 100 milliliters of Hydrogen Peroxide 10%, diluting it with 140 milliliters of distilled water should give me the desired percentage by volume.  

Does this sound feasible and do I need to keep hunting for Hydrogen Peroxide 3% or will my dilution process meet my needs? Any guidance or feedback is very welcome!    

[Steve A.]

A bit more research on this by comparing MSDS for both H2O2 (Hydrogen Peroxide) in 3% and 10% solution show water as the only other ingredient.  So I think that my approach of using Distilled Water to dilute the 10% H2O2 to a 3% by volume should be pretty safe and give me the desired product for one component in my exterior spray to minimize Listeria, e. Coli, and Salmonella on the exterior of muscle prior to grinding.  

[Charles.C]

hi steve,

 

Yr approach seems to be based on this document -

 

http://articles.merc...21/vinegar.aspx

 

I note the date is 1998. Slightly discouraging that nothing further seems reported ?

 

As far as diluting goes, maybe have a look at the approx. procedure here -

 

http://www.using-hyd...n-peroxide.html

 

A slightly more mathematical approx. from yahoo -

 

Best Answer:  Lets say you want an end volume of 500 ml of 3% peroxide. But you dont know how much 30% peroxide to use.

Concentration1 X Volume1 = Concentration2 X Volume2

30/100 X unknown ml = 3/100 X 500 ml

unknown ml = 50 ml

50ml of 30% added to pure 450 ml of water = 500 ml 3 % peroxide.

 

 

Comment

Of course you may want to mention that 30% peroxide is super dangerous, explosive, will blind you in small amounts, has an OSHA tolerable limit of 1 ppm, etc. and requires tons of safety precautions to handle...but yeah thats an answer.

 

 

i would suggest you use food grade chemicals, eg this caveat for H2O2 -

 

Standard over-the-counter 3% hydrogen peroxide is not recommended for internal use or even used as mouthwash because it contains a number of chemical stabilisers. Use a food grade H202 and dilute it down to 3% with spring water or aloe vera juice with distilled water.

 

http://littlegreenbl...rogen-peroxide/

[Steve A.]

Thank you very much for the information.  I am concerned about the hydrogen peroxide being suitable.  However, it is supposedly broken down into components that are not dangerous or so I am assured.  Would the MSDS on OTC 3% Hydrogen Peroxide not have to list stabilizers if they are present?  I did not think the manufacturer got to skip anything in the product.  Am I wrong about that?  

I like your math, much appreciate that.  Why I ducked out of math classes in my youth haunts me to this day.  Oh, some stuff I can do in my head, but a lot of it I've got to do the "phone a friend" thing when I need to be absolutely certain.  I noticed on the hydrogen peroxide page you linked to, their math was something similar to mine.  To get a 1% solution from 3% you'd add 2x amount of water.  I can do that!  Of course I need to go from 10% or possible 35% if I locate food grade H2O2 here.  

Food safety and handling in the Philippines if very often a far cry from what it is in Europe and North America.  Man of my customers and I myself are in the "at risk" group so whatever I can do to ensure their safety without substantially lowering quality, I do.  My bacon is all heat finished although it is cured (salt & sodium nitrite) and actually cold/warm smoked prior.  I am looking for a way to reduce any chance of poor handling along the food chain is dealt with.  Of course without having my own piggery or cattle operation, there is only so much I can do.  My assistants all have fairly extensive training and meat retailing experience so that helps.

I saw the Mercola page, but he has such a bad rep among the science crowd, I tend to not use him as a reference even though the information provided is exactly what I've found else where.  

Here is one page that help start me on the Hydrogen Peroxide/Vinegar approach:

http://www.cooksinfo...r-sterilization   

Steve A.  

[Charles.C]

Hi steve,

 

i admire yr objective.

 

regarding stabiliser, have a look at this link -

 

http://h2o2uses.com/...and-stabilizers

[Steve A.]

Wow!  So they can include stabilizers that are not listed in the MSDS!  I guess that I'll be getting the 35% one way or another, to be sure.  

Separate question, there is no "do over" or "edit" button on posts?  I occasionally make the odd typo or realize that a sentence sounds better in my head than it actually looks on the page.  But if I've hit the post button here, I seem to have made an irrevocable commitment.  Is there a trick I'm missing to repair mistakes?  

[Charles.C]

Wow!  So they can include stabilizers that are not listed in the MSDS!  I guess that I'll be getting the 35% one way or another, to be sure.  

Separate question, there is no "do over" or "edit" button on posts?  I occasionally make the odd typo or realize that a sentence sounds better in my head than it actually looks on the page.  But if I've hit the post button here, I seem to have made an irrevocable commitment.  Is there a trick I'm missing to repair mistakes?  

 

Indeed, H2O2 seems to be a special case wher add-ins are involved due to it's limited stability.

 

I noticed this forum thread which illustrates the magnitude of the problem -

 

http://www.earthclin...e-to-buy11.html

 

Here's some more stabiliser info -

 

http://www.h2o2.com/...ail.aspx?fId=11

 

And Yes, once yr post is clicked, it's history.

[Scampi]

Any reason you are not purchasing a prepared PPA solution? We use it as our final sanitizing rinse, and could use it as a carcass wash. How will you titrate for both when your mixing it yourself? The chemical then becomes a hazard even if rinsed off with potable water?

[Steve A.]

scampi, sorry to display my ignorance, but what is PPA stand for?  A type of carcass wash?  Peroxide of some particular mixture?  Prepared Peroxide Application?  While assuring the actual concentration is beyond my capability, I would be relying on the stated concentration as provided by the manufacturer.  That becomes a bit more complicated with 35% Food Safe H2O2 since it will not have a stabilizer, but I read that storing it frozen is the best way to maintain it.  

However, finding food safe Hydrogen Peroxide in the Philippines is particularly challenging, or has been so far.  And shipping it from the USA here is pretty tough given the Hazmat rating.  

I have found, from Colorado State, a pdf file that about a very good reduction in the desired target bacteria by heating vinegar to a specified temperature 133F/25C and applying, then rinsing off.  While this aimed at sanitizing food preparation equipment and surfaces, I don't see why it would not work on whole meat muscles as well.  Since I have a sous vide setup, maintaining that temperature for my spray bottle of vinegar would not be a problem.  

 

http://www.ext.colos...en-sanitize.pdf

Charles.C As ever, I am in your debt for your excellent references.  I am still in the formative stages of my procedures and will likely use some sort of modified approach.  Given the acceptability of the 10% H2O2 for exterior use - wound cleansing and such, I may dilute it to 3% and spray.  Then use the heated vinegar, and finally rinse with purified water which should remove the H2O2 (and any stabilizers) as well as the vinegar and leave a whole muscle meat - ready for processing - but that has seen a significant reduction in surface bacteria.

My beef is normally from the USA/Canada/Australia and is frozen.  My pork is often local but in my hands within 2 to 3 hours of leaving the slaughter house. I think that I will be able to work out steps to ensure the safety of my products (particularly in my small volume).  But this discussion has made me much more aware of the various aspects in play and if I can find a source of food safe Hydrogen Peroxide, I will snap it up.  

I will open a second topic about benign microbial protection later.  An idea that comes from raw milk cheese and charcuterie where bad or opportunistic bacteria are prevented by the introduction of benign or beneficial bacteria.     

 

[Charles.C]

hi Steve,

 

Apologies in advance to scampi if I'm incorrect but PAA is probably peroxyacetic acid.

Never tried it myself since i was early discouraged by its potency / handling warnings but it claims to be  more user-friendly these days. True or otherwise I don't know. Well discussed on the net if you have a look and in several threads here.

[Charles.C]

addendum

 

I just looked at yr earlier link.

 

I should have remembered that PAA is actually the product of mixing yr vinegar-peroxide items. The irritant comments in the link may have value. However operationally, one chemical is logically more convenient than 2, especially in manufacturing volumes.

 

Might add that my area (seafood) traditionally uses large quantities of h2O2 for "bleaching". i have experience of handling the concentrate. It's nasty stuff if you're careless.

 

Meat not my area but PAA is commonly used in the industry as per the parallel thread to this one on Listeria control, eg FDA comments. Hopefully equally effective towards O157 E.coli.

[Steve A.]

I've will read up (and re-read some) on the links and spend a bit of time with the retired Chemistry professor that lives nearby.  Since I'm not trained in the industry, just some college and culinary training, a lot of this is fairly new to me.  And given my small amounts of processing, I may not have quite the same procedures as the bigger producers.  That said, I'm always trying to learn, both from the commercial approach and the older artisan procedures.  

Since I will reduce the Hydrogen Peroxide to a 3% solution prior to using, I think it is somewhat less dangerous than the much higher concentrations used commercially.  And I am not running a full wash, but rather a spray so the amount applied is fairly small.  I plan to heat the vinegar which is sprayed separately.  After sitting for one minute, it will be rinsed with purified, sterilized water.  I think those steps should reduce bacteria on the surface significantly and limit the opportunity for dangerous amounts of bacteria to be incorporated during grinding.  

Since I use various cuts for my ground beef, from brisket to ox tail, this will need to be done repeatedly.  And I will include similar steps for processing whole muscle for sausages, including pork. 

Sorry for the delay in replying.  My wife's preparations  for her masters degree commencement/graduation and the scramble to get everything done, including the thesis into the printer's for binding took over everyones free time.   

[Charles.C]

Hi Steve,

 

Delay is no problem. It’s the way of the World.

 

I would suggest you exercise caution as to the various chemicals you are playing with, particularly as yr end product is RTE.  And equally the actual process itself.

As I understand, you plan to do no sampling/micro.analysis of the end product at all. This means that yr consumers effectively become the sole testers of yr process and any additives. IMO this is a questionable procedure. I appreciate yr practical limitations but maybe better to “think first, act later”.

 

Good Luck !

[Steve A.]

My ability to sample is problematic. Are you talking about chemical residue in terms of the Hydrogen Peroxide & Vinegar sprays? Or the resulting residue of bacteria?  In terms of checking for any lingering traces of Hydrogen Peroxide/Vinegar after rinsing, how would I go about that?  Is there any sort of litmus test I can use that will react to the H2O2 residue? Or run litmus paper swab across the surface after rinse and dry to check ph level?   

Since I am not combining the two liquids, I am not forming PAA according to what I've read.  Using them as separate sprays keeps them benign environmentally.  So I am not so concerned about them in terms of disposal.  The small amounts sprayed and rinsed will go down the drain.  We are not talking about gallons here, we are looking at milliliters at best (or at worst?) that is diluted to 3% and 5% respectively.  

In terms of bacteria remaining, I tried contacting an outfit that had quick (24 hour) test kits for various bacteria.  Their setup required an on-site machine.  I was hoping to find a simple 24 hour test to allow me to check for particular food borne bacteria - listeria/E. coli and so forth at a reasonable cost.  

Is this sort of testing common in butcher shops in the US?  I am sure it is not being done here.  Anything I can do that is economically feasible, I will.  But the procedure I'm looking at is promoted as food safe for vegetables.  I am surprised that it would be considered more hazardous on whole muscle.  But you are right, I do not have any testing platform, save myself.   Which is what I'll start with.  Small amounts for testing and I will consume personally.  If I don't get sick, my test bunnies will be my family and I will work out from there.

I am no hurry on this other than to implement safety procedures that protect, not threaten, anyone consuming my products.      

[Charles.C]

Hi Steve,

 

A lot of yr queries relate to the Principles behind Food Safety. I can make a few general comments.

IMO chemicals applied to food as you are describing should  be ‘food-grade”.  If such is not available and the product used not validated/validatable it becomes a consumer health gamble.

(I’m not sure if you realize that some max. levels of chemical hazards in foods are measured in units of ppm-ppb.)

 

Assuming you are limited to an evaluation of yr developed end-product, a generic, ad hoc, procedure to determine its safety  might be something like –

 

(1) Develop a Product Specification including  BCP safety requirements.

(2) Find a (qualified) laboratory capable of microbiological and chemical analysis of foods.

(3) Give them at least 2 samples of yr product taken from different batches (preferably duplicate samples of each, ie minimum total 4 samples). The samples should be “shuffled” and then listed, eg ABCD.

(from an economic POV maybe initially give one sample just to evaluate the lab.)

(4) Specify to the lab the items required to be measured (as listed in 1). For some items it may be necessary to inform the lab. as to yr sensitivity level required, eg "check as to whether sample contains < X(conc. unit). If  not known, will hv to trust the lab’s capabilities.

(5) Wait for results. Some micro. items can take up to 1 week.

(6) Compare the results to (1) and consider appropriate follow-ups.

 

The conclusion in (6) will only apply to the submitted sample(s) of course. Not the process. (this is normally written in smallish text somewhere on the data sheet ).

 

The hardest part for you may be step No.1. Suggestions for typical target levels of  micro.  requirements are probably available in the literature. But as to the chemicals …..?

[Steve A.]

Thanks, yes I do see that I have a lot to learn.  I am stepping up from being a "home - personal use" to "small commercial" and that transition includes a fairly steep learning curve.  Of course, from the food - charcuterie aspect, I consult with a lot of experienced individuals about appropriate steps and procedures.  I'm always trying to improve or at least understand different approaches, even if I can implement them personally.  

Kind of like the difference between my bacon - which is good by most anyone's standard and my friend Robert G's bacon which is probably world class.  Although our approaches are fairly similar, his takes four times as long to make and has a much more developed flavor profile.  Cost to create and price are substantially different too.     

But the conversation here has helped me look at where I will need to go if I get any larger.  And thank you for the guidelines.  I am familiar with some of the scientific terms and measurements since we use them in cooking.  I am casting around for the reliable testing facilities here.  

I have reconsidered the use of Hydrogen Peroxide, even though it is recommended for home use, but will try the heated vinegar that I posted a link to earlier.  That will give me the reduction of bacteria presence without any worry about some sort of unintended threat to my customers.   A rinse with sterile, purified water after the hot vinegar spray and all should be well.  I am also working out a enhanced set of equipment cleaning procedures with a retired science teacher who spent years teaching all over the world, from California to Africa. 

Thank you all for your input.  It has been very educational.  And I am sure it will help me improve my level of safety and be more conscious of possible outcomes.  I will continue my education here and else where to ensure great flavor and excellent safety for anyone consuming my products. 

[Tony-C]

Any reason you are not purchasing a prepared PPA solution? We use it as our final sanitizing rinse, and could use it as a carcass wash. How will you titrate for both when your mixing it yourself? The chemical then becomes a hazard even if rinsed off with potable water?

 

I agree Scampi.

 

It does seem like a lot of these links are 'kitchen based' methods although quite clearly a combination of peroxide and acetic acid produces a highly effective.

 

Food Grade PAA would do this job in one step and is commonly used as a residual disinfectant in the food industry.

 

Regards,

 

Tony

[Scampi]

PPA is user friendly and leaves next to zero residue as it "gases off" in laymans terms. Chlorine is a controlled substance and you have to ensure that you are within the acceptable value ( in Canada the ppm is only 50 for carcass wash) The PPA allows for 1 product that can be used across the plant floor in many applications.  

Also, I would never start mixing chemicals myself unless you have a Masters in Organic Chemistry. You  need the ph of the water, concentration of the vinegar and hydrogen peroxide and store bought of both are NOT concentrated enough to be effective at the commercial level. Also, i wouldn't know where to begin making a titration test that was effective. Absolutely not worth the risk in the long run.

Steve A, if you are making cured meats of any kind, you need to be VERY cautious. Ready to eat foods require a lot more care in processing than foods requiring cooking. I'm sure your bacon is delicious, BUT improperly cured/smoked/handled and stored meats are one of the LARGEST food borne illness carriers

[Tony-C]

I am looking at a anti-microbial spray for solid pieces of meat prior to grinding for sausages or ground beef patties. 

 

Also, I would never start mixing chemicals myself unless you have a Masters in Organic Chemistry...... concentration of the vinegar and hydrogen peroxide and store bought of both are NOT concentrated enough to be effective at the commercial level. Also, i wouldn't know where to begin making a titration test that was effective.

BUT improperly cured/smoked/handled and stored meats are one of the LARGEST food borne illness carriers

 

As PAA is diluted in commercial applications this is not true - Around 150ppm is typical.... but I agree it is better to buy from professionals than DIY ! also Titration test methods are available.

 

I don't believe that 'improperly cured/smoked/handled and stored meats are one of the LARGEST food borne illness carriers' if they are to be cooked? Foods to Avoid Please can you clarify what you mean.

Regards,

Tony

Edited by Tony-C, 26 May 2015 - 06:02 PM.
Added Link

[Steve A.]

Okay, I much appreciate the insight and advice.  I do need to remind of a couple things.  I am in the Philippines and a small urban area, not the main urban area.  I'm hours and hours up the mountain.  For the most part, there is no running down to the commercial supplier or restaurant supply for many of the things you mention and purchase easily in North America, Europe, or even Australia.  There is, so far, no PPA to be purchased here and I've asked around.  PPA, until I get lucky, is not available.  Not a real choice so even though it is a great one.  I was never going to make my own PPA since the original procedure I referenced talks about using Hydrogen Peroxide 3% sequentially with Vinegar 5%.  Not combined.  Sprayed separately and wiped or rinsed off.

And there is no food safe Hydrogen Peroxide or even 3% over-the-counter Hydrogen Peroxide here.  NONE!  Zip! Zilch!  Maybe in Manila, but I would have to spend days traveling and hunting it with only a "possible" chance of success.  Try locating PPA in the Philippines or Manila or Cebu on Google.  You will find the supplied links will send you off to overseas suppliers.  And finding a way to get any remotely "hazardous" labeled substance delivered from overseas is a dance with the devil at best.  That is with the carrier, then you hit Philippine customs and you are pretty much "through the looking glass" with Lewis Carroll!  

Sure, I could try some of the Chinese suppliers but the confidence and reliability factor plummets.  They routinely ship substandard production here because the Philippines is an easy dumping ground compared to many other places in the world.  So I do not source much of anything out of China unless I have zero alternatives and a mandatory requirement for the item.  And then I still face the shipping and customs hoops.  

Part of the charm of living here is you are often forced to find solutions to problems.  No bacon?  You learn to make your own.  No pastrami? Same solution.  Pretty soon, you are making for yourself, your family, and the five guys you occasionally have lunch with.  Then it gets around that your bacon is pretty good.  Real smoke, not liquid stuff.  Dry rub cure, not soaked brine cure.  Your phone lights up, text messages abound, orders start doubling and things start looking less like a hobby and more like a business. 

We all have different styles - including learning styles.  I'm kind of the researcher type.  I spend a lot of time reading, asking questions, looking at different aspects of something before i even think about actually starting a project.  I did a lot of reading, joined forums, made friends, asked tons of questions before I ever bought a pork belly.  I sourced my ingredients from reliable suppliers, often spending substantially more so I knew exactly what I had.  

Scampi, I realize food safety is a very big issue with anything made to be eaten.  I don't quite see your inference about cured meats as more dangerous.  Food recalls I've seen and outbreaks of food related diseases have covered a wide spectrum of things, but I don't remember any recalls of bacon or even sausage.  Ice cream, apples,   But short term cure - under two weeks, refrigerated products.  I guess I don't see the level of danger that you do.  Botulism is why they started curing with sodium nitrite (aka Prague Powder #1/Pink Salt #1/Instacure #1).  Other food borne diseases, salmonella, E. coli, are not addressed by sodium nitrite effectively.  Which is why we all disinfect our work areas and equipment.  And why I wanted to minimize any surface bacteria on the meat prior to grinding.  Food safety requires good procedures and guards against contamination, particularly cross contamination.  And it takes refrigeration for long term storage.  But I don't see making bacon as more dangerous than most any other food that can spoil and actually less dangerous due to precluding botulism.   

I checked the last month worth of FDA recall notices.  As I said, eggs, nuts, veggies, a few fish items and patties but usually due to undeclared ingredients.  No bacon.  No sausage.  While I realize there are real dangers, they are addressed by good hygiene and accepted practices.  Otherwise people would be dropping over across the country. I'm much more concerned about raw milk than I am about cured meats.  

  

[Scampi]

I didn't mean to insinuate that you are taking care. There was a listeria outbreak in Canada in recent past where lives were lost and many more sickened and they were consuming RTE meat. I don't want to ever see that happen again

[Scampi]

Sorry, I meant not taking care. I'm sure that you are or you wouldn't be posting here

[Scampi]

If you can get your hands on chlorine readily, 50 ppm million is an acceptable concentration without potable water rinse after.

[Steve A.]

Hey there fellows!  I swapped out my internet provider and paid the price.  The new one was cheaper and faster, but sadly the first couple of months have been less than reliable with connect time measured in minutes per day.  And the no connection time measured in hours.  Bleh!  They have promised to be better and they are now staying up for a day or so at a time.  I can get back to doing something besides getting half way through checking my email before losing my connection.

Alright, back to business.  For rinsing the small amount of carcasses I'm using for fresh sausage and bacon that I plan to grind without heat treating, I am going to a simple warmed vinegar spray and water rinse.  No hydrogen peroxide involved.  I will use hydrogen peroxide spray for disinfecting equipment and cutting boards - as well as the vinegar spray (separate from the hydrogen peroxide spray).  And my standard diluted chlorine bleach spray will be used on the equipment as well.  

Along with the standard fresh sausages (breakfast, Italian, Mexican style Chorizo), I'm working on a bacon cheeseburger sausage that I want to be extra careful with.  Luckily I've found some good sources in a group of Charcuterie buffs that provide some great safety guides including HACCP guides.   

[Tony-C]

Hi Steve,

 

I've read through many of your posts and to be honest you have not been looking at the bigger picture..... everybody with a similar problem in a similar environment freezes their products.

 

Regards,

 

Tony