14 replies to this topic

[yaba]

Is time and temperature are the only control measures we have for baking?

[Charles.C]

Is time and temperature are the only control measures we have for baking?

 

Unclear whether you mean the baking step or a process for making baked foods.

 

If the latter, it may depend on yr process, eg a Metal Detector can  = a CCP if so desired

[mewwha]

can be ph, water activity, and moisture of the finished product.

[Charles.C]

can be ph, water activity, and moisture of the finished product.

 

Hi mewwha,

 

Can you validate this statement. Seems improbable.

[mewwha]

Dear Charles,

I based it on this article I read in  http://www.fda.gov/F...s/ucm094147.htm which our consultant referred us to.  I initially reacted when our haccp team said that the time and temperature can be a control measure for microbial hazard in the baking step which should be our ccp, I thought it was more of a quality issue when time, temperature is not met, as the product will be disposed if it comes out unbaked just by visible inspection.The monitoring of the ph, water activity and moisture of the product is related to the monitoring of time and temperature in baking.

Our previous ccp was metal detector, however the consultant said the product can be baked and packed without the metal detector , so it's not part of the process and not supposed to be a ccp.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks.

[marii_ya1990]

Dear Charles,
I based it on this article I read in http://www.fda.gov/F...s/ucm094147.htm which our consultant referred us to. I initially reacted when our haccp team said that the time and temperature can be a control measure for microbial hazard in the baking step which should be our ccp, I thought it was more of a quality issue when time, temperature is not met, as the product will be disposed if it comes out unbaked just by visible inspection.The monitoring of the ph, water activity and moisture of the product is related to the monitoring of time and temperature in baking.
Our previous ccp was metal detector, however the consultant said the product can be baked and packed without the metal detector , so it's not part of the process and not supposed to be a ccp.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Thanks.

Moisture levels and water activity of the baked products have become standard parameters that should be closely monitored.additional raw materials like humectants,preservatives and emulsifiers are added to keep this products soft,moist,mould free fresh for long time,also,better rheology is impotant,and ph is the imortant parameter,too

[Charles.C]

Dear Charles,

I based it on this article I read in  http://www.fda.gov/F...s/ucm094147.htm which our consultant referred us to.  I initially reacted when our haccp team said that the time and temperature can be a control measure for microbial hazard in the baking step which should be our ccp, I thought it was more of a quality issue when time, temperature is not met, as the product will be disposed if it comes out unbaked just by visible inspection.The monitoring of the ph, water activity and moisture of the product is related to the monitoring of time and temperature in baking.

Our previous ccp was metal detector, however the consultant said the product can be baked and packed without the metal detector , so it's not part of the process and not supposed to be a ccp.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks.

 

Hi mewwha,

 

I assumed (see post2) that  the OP was referring to either (a) control measures in the Process suitable to justify a CCP at the associated Step or (b) the baking step itself.

 

Regardless, I assume your posts 3,  5 refer to the actual baking step from a practical POV.

I cannot see any suggestion  in the FDA document that any of  the 3 variables pH, water activity, moisture may be regarded as haccp control measures in the baking step. Can you indicate where such may be ?

 

Regarding the MD, I believe most “expert” evaluations of typical baking processes consider metallic contamination as a significant hazard which must be “removed” “somewhere”.

Perhaps yr consultant had a different viewpoint for "some"  reason ?  IMEX an auditor would usually require validation of such a reason.

[marii_ya1990]

Hi mewwha,

I assumed (see post2) that the OP was referring to either (a) control measures in the Process suitable to justify a CCP at the associated Step or (b) the baking step itself.

Regardless, I assume your posts 3, 5 refer to the actual baking step from a practical POV.
I cannot see any suggestion in the FDA document that any of the 3 variables pH, water activity, moisture may be regarded as haccp control measures in the baking step. Can you indicate where such may be ?

Regarding the MD, I believe most “expert” evaluations of typical baking processes consider metallic contamination as a significant hazard which must be “removed” “somewhere”.
Perhaps yr consultant had a different viewpoint for "some" reason ? IMEX an auditor would usually require validation of such a reason.

I thought wrong,in the baking process we have just time and tempreture to conroll baking product,as far as I know

[mewwha]

would the right term be that they are parameters or indicators controlled by time and temperature in the baking step ? 

[Charles.C]

 

would the right term be that they are parameters or indicators controlled by time and temperature in the baking step ? 

 

Hi mewwha,

 

The definition of control measure (Codex) is -  Any action and activity that can be used to prevent or eliminate a food safety hazard or reduce it to an acceptable level.

 

The haccp hazard analysis for the baking step typically concludes that there may be significant biological hazards due microbial pathogens. These must be eliminated/reduced to an acceptable level by a control measure.

 

For vegetative microbial forms, this typically requires applying a heat treatment of an appropriate lethality. The associated operational values (temperature/time) are critical limits.

 

i don't know offhand of any direct influence from the pH/moisture values etc. from a haccp POV at the baking step.

[mewwha]

Thanks

[Dr.Khan]

 Hi Mewwha

 

Many companies in the baking industry includes batch codes of finished products as well as metal screening steps as CCP in their HACCP analysis and  some companies do not consider baking step itself as CCP. 

 

In my opinion a good HACCP system would consider all three following steps as CCP

 

1. Baking

2. Batch coding of the final products

3. Metal screening.

 

Kind regards

Dr. Humaid Khan

Managing Director

Halal International Services

Sydney Australia

We work Globally

[mgourley]

They are not "control measures", they are "quality control measures".

 

Time and temperature in baking (at least breads and rolls and cookies) is important in the process because if you do not proof at a certain temperature/humidity for a certain time and do not bake at a certain temp and time, you will have a poor or less than ideal quality product. The ancillary benefit is there more than likely will be elimination of any possible "bad bugs".

 

Moisture, pH and aW are also quality measures. If these items are to high in your process and finished products, (bread, rolls)  they are more likely to mold quicker than the best by date. (Unless you overload with preservatives.)

In cookies, depending on the type, too high or too low moisture or aW will negatively affect a product that has a fairly long shelf life (>8 months).

 

So I guess the question would be, what did the OP mean by "control measures"?

 

Marshall

[Charles.C]

They are not "control measures", they are "quality control measures".

 

Time and temperature in baking (at least breads and rolls and cookies) is important in the process because if you do not proof at a certain temperature/humidity for a certain time and do not bake at a certain temp and time, you will have a poor or less than ideal quality product. The ancillary benefit is there more than likely will be elimination of any possible "bad bugs".

 

Moisture, pH and aW are also quality measures. If these items are to high in your process and finished products, (bread, rolls)  they are more likely to mold quicker than the best by date. (Unless you overload with preservatives.)

In cookies, depending on the type, too high or too low moisture or aW will negatively affect a product that has a fairly long shelf life (>8 months).

 

So I guess the question would be, what did the OP mean by "control measures"?

 

Marshall

 

Hi Marshall,

 

Well, pH/moisture/Aw  could maybe relate to safety aspects if filling baked products after baking ?.

 

I guess the concept in yr 2nd paragraph could be extended to cooking also.

 

I hope you are not supporting non-safety issues to be included within HACCP. SQF started the rot IMO by referring to Food Quality Hazards.

[mgourley]

Charles,

 

Certainly they could, but I was specifically talking about bread and rolls. No filling going on there.

 

Again, clarification of what the OP was asking is necessary. I am certainly not in favor of "quality hazards".

 

Marshall