Jump to content

  • Quick Navigation
Photo
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • Please log in to reply
12 replies to this topic

#1 bronaghmk1

bronaghmk1

    Grade - Active

  • IFSQN Active
  • 5 posts
  • 0 thanks
0
Neutral

  • Ireland
    Ireland

Posted 17 April 2018 - 09:16 AM

We have just had our BRC audit in which the auditor had issues with the Fail-Safe in which when the air is turned off there is a 3 second delay before alarms sound (which he argues is too long even though we recall all product from the last successful metal detection test if the machine alarms sound).

 

I was wondering if anyone has had these issues before and if someone could give me any advice on dealing with this? 

 

Thanks!



#2 il_robez

il_robez

    Grade - Active

  • IFSQN Active
  • 9 posts
  • 1 thanks
0
Neutral

  • Italy
    Italy

Posted 17 April 2018 - 09:33 AM

Dear Bronaghmk1,

 

if your Quality System tells that you check everything from the alarm/failure to the previous check.. there is no auditor that can think that 3 seconds are too long.

 

All is described and you have a corrective action, so for me, no problem at all.

 

 

Roby



Thanked by 1 Member:

#3 bronaghmk1

bronaghmk1

    Grade - Active

  • IFSQN Active
  • 5 posts
  • 0 thanks
0
Neutral

  • Ireland
    Ireland

Posted 17 April 2018 - 10:01 AM

Dear Bronaghmk1,

 

if your Quality System tells that you check everything from the alarm/failure to the previous check.. there is no auditor that can think that 3 seconds are too long.

 

All is described and you have a corrective action, so for me, no problem at all.

 

 

Roby

so you think as a corrective action we would be passed if i was to include and highlight the checks we have and the corrective action already in place? Or would i be best to create a new SOP aimed directly at the Failsafe element and list all actions on this document?



#4 il_robez

il_robez

    Grade - Active

  • IFSQN Active
  • 9 posts
  • 1 thanks
0
Neutral

  • Italy
    Italy

Posted 17 April 2018 - 10:18 AM

Dear Bronaghmk1,

 

in my Quality System there are:

 

-Procedure for metal detenction

-Training for operators dedicated to metal detector

-Instruction on "how make the test" on the machines 

-Instruction on "how to manage failures"

 

 

in the last document i wrote what we do and how we test metal detectors... never got not conformities

 

Roby



#5 SQFconsultant

SQFconsultant

    SQFconsultant

  • IFSQN Fellow
  • 2,035 posts
  • 519 thanks
383
Excellent

  • United States
    United States
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Righting the ship for companies and getting them into the SQF certification channel, Learning the play the Sax, walking on the beach in Costa Rica and drinking incredible CR coffee! Pura Vida!

Posted 17 April 2018 - 05:15 PM

"even though we recall all product from the last successful metal detection test if the machine alarms sound)."

 

Is that all documented?


Warm regards,

 

 

Glenn Oster

Glenn Oster Consulting, LLC

 

SQF Development & Implementation Consultants

On-Site at current project in Yorktown, Virginia USA

Home is in La Cruz, Guanacaste - Costa Rica

Our coverage area: USA, Central America & Caribbean

http://glennostercon...ixsite.com/ogfc

+1-800-793-7042 (Earth Wide)

 

 

Say What You Do -- We provide consulting here and develop your SQF documented system

Do What You Say -- We provide consulting here and help your staff to implement your SQF system

Prove it! -- We provide consulting here to show you the way to certification without glitches

 

What will take your company about 8 months to do - we do in under 30 days.

Engaging an SQF Consultant to develop your SQF System & inspect your facility for compliance is a time and major labor saver.

 

Get SQF Certified - Retain Customers and Get New Customers!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


#6 redfox

redfox

    Grade - SIFSQN

  • IFSQN Senior
  • 473 posts
  • 152 thanks
21
Excellent

  • Philippines
    Philippines

Posted 18 April 2018 - 05:08 AM

Hello,

 

Is your metal detecting step is continuous process? What is the speed of your conveyor? 3 seconds is too long in my own opinion. Many products have already passed.

 

regards,

redfox



#7 bronaghmk1

bronaghmk1

    Grade - Active

  • IFSQN Active
  • 5 posts
  • 0 thanks
0
Neutral

  • Ireland
    Ireland

Posted 18 April 2018 - 08:41 AM

Hello,

 

Is your metal detecting step is continuous process? What is the speed of your conveyor? 3 seconds is too long in my own opinion. Many products have already passed.

 

regards,

redfox

yes it is a continuous process i am not sure of the exact speed but one pack is going through in those three seconds before the alarm sounds how does your failsafe work if you dont mind me asking? 



#8 redfox

redfox

    Grade - SIFSQN

  • IFSQN Senior
  • 473 posts
  • 152 thanks
21
Excellent

  • Philippines
    Philippines

Posted 19 April 2018 - 06:40 AM

Hello,

 

Our SOP in MD: we verify sensitivity of the MD using ferrous,  non-ferrous and SUS, before the operation, every 30 mins thereafter and right after the end of the production. The product in canister weighing 350 grams is feed manually to the conveyor on the center-most side. 

 

If on the latest verification the MD fails, we will recheck of if possible rework the product from the latest check when MD is functioning well and to the latest when the MD fails. It covers all the product that passed through the 30-min period.

 

regards,

redfox



#9 il_robez

il_robez

    Grade - Active

  • IFSQN Active
  • 9 posts
  • 1 thanks
0
Neutral

  • Italy
    Italy

Posted 19 April 2018 - 06:51 AM

Hello,

 

Our SOP in MD: we verify sensitivity of the MD using ferrous,  non-ferrous and SUS, before the operation, every 30 mins thereafter and right after the end of the production. The product in canister weighing 350 grams is feed manually to the conveyor on the center-most side. 

 

If on the latest verification the MD fails, we will recheck of if possible rework the product from the latest check when MD is functioning well and to the latest when the MD fails. It covers all the product that passed through the 30-min period.

 

regards,

redfox

so.. it is not a problem if there is a 1 or 3 or 5 seconds delay :) if it is all documented and checked regullary by a trained worker and you check everything since the last check :)



#10 redfox

redfox

    Grade - SIFSQN

  • IFSQN Senior
  • 473 posts
  • 152 thanks
21
Excellent

  • Philippines
    Philippines

Posted 19 April 2018 - 07:13 AM

Hello,

 

In our case, since the product is manually fed, we don't see any problem relating to fail-safe, because no product will be fed to conveyor until the verification is done. Product that passes the conveyor on last verification will wait until the latest verification is done. 

 

regards,

redfox



#11 Nikki R

Nikki R

    Grade - MIFSQN

  • IFSQN Member
  • 58 posts
  • 39 thanks
7
Neutral

  • United Kingdom
    United Kingdom
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Suffolk
  • Interests:Painting, Spending time with my little men, Food Fraud and writing childrens books

Posted 19 April 2018 - 08:09 AM

To be honest I would be concerned with a 3 second window. Depending on how fast product passes through you would find it difficult to pin down which pack / bottle actually failed. Our machines have an instant stop when metal is detected. When the belt stops and the alarm goes off he affected product is still under the head, with a 3 second gap that product could already be stacked on the pallet. Could you machine settings be altered by the manufacturer to make it an instant stop or would your company consider an upgrade? (our machines are Loma if I am allowed to say that) Also with that gap reworking all product since the last test would have the same issue, if something triggered the alarm how would you identify the exact pack with that gap? On our bottling line 3 seconds would mean we would have 15-20 bottles at the end that we didn't know which one triggered the alarm making investigating the non conformance hard as well. 



Thanked by 1 Member:

#12 Big_Blue_1878

Big_Blue_1878

    Grade - Active

  • IFSQN Active
  • 2 posts
  • 0 thanks
0
Neutral

  • United Kingdom
    United Kingdom

Posted 19 April 2018 - 08:24 AM

Hi,

 

There are no set rules on when a failsafe should stop production, it is down to opinion only and suggested times by the manufactures of the machines.

 

Has the auditor raised an non conformance for this finding, if so I would be inclined to appeal it should it mean you can get a higher grade...providing you can comply to the below fully.

 

The issue can be closed if you can show detailed control and sufficient training, control would be based in a procedure to cover all product since the last good (failsafe) check, should the failsafe engage (it is not sufficient to say 'once a failsafe engages we will have the line repaired before starting' and training for the person(s) involved in the operation of the machine who would be able to explain to the auditor that should a failsafe engage they would inform QA, eng dept and recheck every packed product from the last successful failsafe check, which could be the entire days production should the failsafe be tested at the start of the day and rechecked at the end of the day !!

 

Hope this makes sense



#13 012117

012117

    Grade - MIFSQN

  • IFSQN Member
  • 227 posts
  • 67 thanks
31
Excellent

  • Earth
    Earth
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Philippines
  • Interests:Validation, basketball, chocolatier

Posted 24 July 2018 - 08:40 AM

Hi, Bronaghmk1,

 

How is the operation of the "fail-safe"? Is "fail-safe" means if the air pressure is than required, will the ejector system continuously in reject mode and/or the machine stops? Or the line will continue to run and the  "fail-safe" mechanism only generate alarms and no effect on the ejector or machine? If it is the former, then there should be no issue as there will be no product passing through. If the latter, then there must be a document stating what needs to be done in case of non conformity. All of these should have been considered during the validation of controls (considering the worst case scenario). The risk of having 3 seconds "fail-safe" will now be then dependent on the operation.







0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

EV SSL Certificate