8 replies to this topic

[dsarapin]

Does anyone have experience in preparing Meat Logs to be later sliced into lunch meat? My current process is to reach a full lethality point in a sous vide packaging mold;  and at a later point removing the log from the packaging material and smoking it to a second lethality point. The problem we are having is meat degradation, and the product being over cooked.  Will there be a food safety concern if the first cooking stage does not reach a lethality stage, but only a temperature that would allow the meat to bind together to keep the shape. Is there a specific time/temperature to achieve the best quality and consistency.

[Scampi]

The issue with sous vide is that it DOES N"T reach a high enough temperature to function as a kill step, but maintains the perfect temperature to create a poison soup mess. (ideal growth zone for pathogens)

 

Generally speaking, this is not a method that is used. The meat is usually made into a paste with fat added as a binder (it's usually added frozen to help with this step); then formed and cooked/smoked. I'm speaking from experience 

 

Since you plan on smoking it anyway, i suggest that you rethink the process, and use a casing to hold it together until the smoking step is complete and you've reached a full kill.

 

Luncheon meats is one of the deadliest products to make when not done correctly. Your biggest concern is L.Mono (deadly at incredible small ppm). And cooking it low and slow just adds to the issue. If you have a log that has a diameter of 5 inches, that is going to take a very long time to reach an internal temp of 165 (or greater) and then you need to hold it there for a set amount of time to achieve the kill, which is going to be really hard, because until it's reached that temp, all the pathogens present have been multiplying like mad, and now you don't really know how many you need to kill to get a safe product. Then you're removing it, NOT rapidly chilling it and then letting it hang in the smoker where AGAIN it could be cross contaminated and/or it didn't really reach the required time/temp combo (because you're thermometer wasn't calibrated correctly and/or your salt level wasn't high enough and/or water activity was too high)  and allowed to sit in the danger zone once again.

 

Is It Safe to Cook Food at Low Temperatures? According to the USDA, any food held in the so-called temperature "danger zone" (between 40°F and 140°F) for more than two hours presents a risk of food-borne illness from the growth of pathogenic bacteria — whether it's cooked sous vide or by conventional means.Mar 31, 2016

Edited by Scampi, 24 January 2019 - 01:33 PM.

[Sweet'n'low]

The issue with sous vide is that it DOES N"T reach a high enough temperature to function as a kill step, but maintains the perfect temperature to create a poison soup mess. (ideal growth zone for pathogens)

 

Generally speaking, this is not a method that is used. The meat is usually made into a paste with fat added as a binder (it's usually added frozen to help with this step); then formed and cooked/smoked. I'm speaking from experience 

 

Since you plan on smoking it anyway, i suggest that you rethink the process, and use a casing to hold it together until the smoking step is complete and you've reached a full kill.

 

Luncheon meats is one of the deadliest products to make when not done correctly. Your biggest concern is L.Mono (deadly at incredible small ppm). And cooking it low and slow just adds to the issue. If you have a log that has a diameter of 5 inches, that is going to take a very long time to reach an internal temp of 165 (or greater) and then you need to hold it there for a set amount of time to achieve the kill, which is going to be really hard, because until it's reached that temp, all the pathogens present have been multiplying like mad, and now you don't really know how many you need to kill to get a safe product. Then you're removing it, NOT rapidly chilling it and then letting it hang in the smoker where AGAIN it could be cross contaminated and/or it didn't really reach the required time/temp combo (because you're thermometer wasn't calibrated correctly and/or your salt level wasn't high enough and/or water activity was too high)  and allowed to sit in the danger zone once again.

 

Is It Safe to Cook Food at Low Temperatures? According to the USDA, any food held in the so-called temperature "danger zone" (between 40°F and 140°F) for more than two hours presents a risk of food-borne illness from the growth of pathogenic bacteria — whether it's cooked sous vide or by conventional means.Mar 31, 2016

 

In regards to low temps in the danger zone; I have used sous vide cooking in a restaurant kitchen where utilizing low temps for prolonged periods of time, 4 hrs or more, was considered pasteurized if cooked at a temp of 132F. Time and temperature play a significant role in sous vide utilization due to the ability to keep the meat tender, moist, and adds a significant amount of flavor. Considering that form of pasteurization is backed by science, does this make the statement above about cooking food at low temps contradictory? My thought on the matter at hand is, if the sous vide has pasteurized the product, can it become contaminated further along the process? Like when going from sous vide to smoking. 

 

I also do understand that cooking in a restaurant is somewhat different than manufacturing scenario, but both are to have CCP's in place for Time and Temperature. So, I may be way off on this, or I might be on track to prove a point. 

[Scampi]

Whole muscle cuts (chicken breast/pork tenderloin) are VERY different microbially speaking that ground and formed luncheon meat and the inherit risks drastically different

 

That's why you can safely consume a rare steak or roast, but never a rare hamburger............

 

 

The sous vide process should NEVER be used for anything other than cooking whole muscle cuts. Period. Luncheon meat preparation is considered HIGH RISK and shouldn't be entered into lightly and without fully understanding the risks. So let's assume that the log wasn't not pasturized fully..........you cut open the bag...........and the contaminated liquid goes everywhere..........now you've contaminated your whole facility with salmonella/listeria/ecoli. So not only is the log capable of making people sick at this point...........but you really need to clean and sanitize the area before you carry on..........so many risks in this scenario it makes my head hurt

 

We have to ensure they when discussing methods we are comparing apples to apples as it were. Restaurant application of sous vide are not only lunch meat.

 

Lunch meats can be so deadly, this is what the CDC recommends, so I would never risk this production method for all the tea in the world

 

Hot dogs, pâtés, lunch meats, and cold cuts

Recommendations for everyone:

• Don’t let juice from hot dog and lunch meat packages get on other foods, utensils, and food preparation surfaces. Wash hands after handling hot dogs, lunch meats, and deli meats.
• Safely store products in the refrigerator:
  • Hot dogs: Store opened packages no longer than 1 week in the refrigerator and unopened packages no longer than 2 weeks in the refrigerator.
  • Lunch and deli meat: Store factory-sealed, unopened packages no longer than 2 weeks in the refrigerator. Store opened packages and meat sliced at a local deli no longer than 3 to 5 days in the refrigerator.

Recommendations for people at higher risk, including pregnant women, older adults, and people with weakened immunity:

• Avoid eating hot dogs, lunch meats, cold cuts, other deli meats (such as bologna), or fermented or dry sausages unless they are heated to an internal temperature of 165°F or until steaming hot just before serving.
• Do not eat refrigerated pâté or meat spreads from a deli or meat counter or from the refrigerated section of a store. Foods that do not need refrigeration, like canned or shelf-stable pâté and meat spreads, are safe to eat. Refrigerate these foods after opening

[Sweet'n'low]

 

Whole muscle cuts (chicken breast/pork tenderloin) are VERY different microbially speaking that ground and formed luncheon meat and the inherit risks drastically different

 

That's why you can safely consume a rare steak or roast, but never a rare hamburger............

 

 

The sous vide process should NEVER be used for anything other than cooking whole muscle cuts. Period. Luncheon meat preparation is considered HIGH RISK and shouldn't be entered into lightly and without fully understanding the risks. So let's assume that the log wasn't not pasturized fully..........you cut open the bag...........and the contaminated liquid goes everywhere..........now you've contaminated your whole facility with salmonella/listeria/ecoli. So not only is the log capable of making people sick at this point...........but you really need to clean and sanitize the area before you carry on..........so many risks in this scenario it makes my head hurt

 

We have to ensure they when discussing methods we are comparing apples to apples as it were. Restaurant application of sous vide are not only lunch meat.

 

Lunch meats can be so deadly, this is what the CDC recommends, so I would never risk this production method for all the tea in the world

 

Hot dogs, pâtés, lunch meats, and cold cuts

Recommendations for everyone:

• Don’t let juice from hot dog and lunch meat packages get on other foods, utensils, and food preparation surfaces. Wash hands after handling hot dogs, lunch meats, and deli meats.
• Safely store products in the refrigerator:
  • Hot dogs: Store opened packages no longer than 1 week in the refrigerator and unopened packages no longer than 2 weeks in the refrigerator.
  • Lunch and deli meat: Store factory-sealed, unopened packages no longer than 2 weeks in the refrigerator. Store opened packages and meat sliced at a local deli no longer than 3 to 5 days in the refrigerator.

Recommendations for people at higher risk, including pregnant women, older adults, and people with weakened immunity:

• Avoid eating hot dogs, lunch meats, cold cuts, other deli meats (such as bologna), or fermented or dry sausages unless they are heated to an internal temperature of 165°F or until steaming hot just before serving.
• Do not eat refrigerated pâté or meat spreads from a deli or meat counter or from the refrigerated section of a store. Foods that do not need refrigeration, like canned or shelf-stable pâté and meat spreads, are safe to eat. Refrigerate these foods after opening

 

Touche. I completely missed the fact that it was lunch meat. I should read more carefully. I do agree with you on that aspect of it. 

Now I know why I don't buy deli meats. I never really put much thought into it, but glad you planted that seed. Whenever I make a turkey sandwich or roast beef, its from turkey breast or an eye of round (whole cuts). 

[Scampi]

mmmmmmmmmmmmmm eye of round...........covered in Montreal steak spice.......roasting pan half filled with water and some bay leaves..............cover with foil.............roast til done. Slices beautifully for lunch!!

[Sweet'n'low]

mmmmmmmmmmmmmm eye of round...........covered in Montreal steak spice.......roasting pan half filled with water and some bay leaves..............cover with foil.............roast til done. Slices beautifully for lunch!!

Thats exactly how i do it. Montreal steak seasoning is probably the best for roast beef. Roast till 115F, let rest for a good 30 mins. Serve with a garlic and herb cheese spread. 

[Scampi]

ok, so January should be officially called Januhungry...................it's 10:30 in the morning for me and I could eat a roast beef dinner with ALL the trimmings right NOW!!!

 

Let's all hashtag  #Januhungry

[Sweet'n'low]

Just how they used to have the pizza bagel commercials, "pizza in the morning, pizza in the evening, pizza at supper time, when pizza's on a bagel you can eat pizza anytime". I'd take that one further and say when roast beef is on the table you can eat roast beef anytime. I hope this doesn't make you hangry till lunch time.

 

#Januhungry