Jump to content

  • Quick Navigation
Photo
- - - - -

Do fly screens fitted to external doors allow them to be left open?

doors brc packaging pests fly doors

  • You cannot start a new topic
  • Please log in to reply
21 replies to this topic

#1 sarahm96

sarahm96

    Grade - Active

  • IFSQN Active
  • 14 posts
  • 0 thanks
0
Neutral

  • United Kingdom
    United Kingdom

Posted 03 July 2019 - 10:58 AM

Hi,

 

I'm looking for some advice on external doors. I've only been at the site a month and am working on implementing BRC, but I'm not very experienced. We are a paper packaging company which now deal with food contact grease proof papers and the site is still under development, as we have just moved in about a year ago.

 

I have a bit of an issue with external fire doors leading into the production/hygiene areas. In the hot weather (not that we get a lot of that here!) the factory gets very hot so the doors are left open, although they shouldn't be, to make it more comfortable for the operators. This obviously opens us up to contaminants and pests entering so I wondered about having fly/pest doors fitted internally which should hopefully keep out pests but still allow some ventilation through the mesh.

 

My question is would something like this fly with BRC?

 

Thanks in advance!



#2 GMO

GMO

    Grade - FIFSQN

  • IFSQN Fellow
  • 2,658 posts
  • 675 thanks
162
Excellent

  • United Kingdom
    United Kingdom

Posted 03 July 2019 - 11:56 AM

Hi,

 

I'm looking for some advice on external doors. I've only been at the site a month and am working on implementing BRC, but I'm not very experienced. We are a paper packaging company which now deal with food contact grease proof papers and the site is still under development, as we have just moved in about a year ago.

 

I have a bit of an issue with external fire doors leading into the production/hygiene areas. In the hot weather (not that we get a lot of that here!) the factory gets very hot so the doors are left open, although they shouldn't be, to make it more comfortable for the operators. This obviously opens us up to contaminants and pests entering so I wondered about having fly/pest doors fitted internally which should hopefully keep out pests but still allow some ventilation through the mesh.

 

My question is would something like this fly with BRC?

 

Thanks in advance!

 

I like the gag!  "Would this fly?"  Nice!

 

The answer is yes, possibly, with notes of caution.  If you have close fitting fly screens with no risks that flies, birds and rodents can enter (remember those brush strips) then yes, it can be acceptable from a pest perspective, but...

 

Remember doors aren't just there to keep pests out but to stop people who shouldn't be at site getting in.  Fly screens are less likely to be lockable, especially if they're over fire doors and even if they are, they're far easier to cut through to access.

 

So in summary, yes, possibly but if you do, make sure that the doors you do screen are within a secure site perimeter so that they couldn't be used as access (so not a food defence issue) but you'd also need to make sure they're closed up when the plant is shut down.

 



Thanked by 1 Member:

#3 trubertq

trubertq

    Grade - PIFSQN

  • IFSQN Principal
  • 639 posts
  • 265 thanks
120
Excellent

  • Ireland
    Ireland
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Donegal

Posted 03 July 2019 - 12:45 PM

Hmmm I can't see this "flyiing" to be honest as it's bad on a number of levels as GMO has pointed out. Do a really thorough risk assessmen,t bring pest cotrol, hygiene, site security, food defence etc into it and see how you feel after that. If the fly screens were able to be fixed then it might be a runner but as they are emergency exits this can't happen either unless you put seals on them maybe or alarms? 

 

Any chance you can get AC? 


I'm entitled to my opinion, even a stopped clock is right twice a day

Thanked by 1 Member:

#4 sarahm96

sarahm96

    Grade - Active

  • IFSQN Active
  • 14 posts
  • 0 thanks
0
Neutral

  • United Kingdom
    United Kingdom

Posted 03 July 2019 - 01:06 PM

Thanks both for your replies. I think the doors would be probably just like the fire doors (which aren't actually sealed around the edges) but with mesh. We could definitely fit brushes etc.

 

I doubt it with AC, we are not a big manufacturer and it would be costly I would imagine.

 

It's a bit of a awkward one, I'm going to try and contact BRC and see if they can offer any advice on it also but open to any suggestions!

 

This is such a great resource, esp for someone new to BRC like myself.



#5 GMO

GMO

    Grade - FIFSQN

  • IFSQN Fellow
  • 2,658 posts
  • 675 thanks
162
Excellent

  • United Kingdom
    United Kingdom

Posted 03 July 2019 - 02:19 PM

Hmmm I can't see this "flyiing" to be honest as it's bad on a number of levels as GMO has pointed out. Do a really thorough risk assessmen,t bring pest cotrol, hygiene, site security, food defence etc into it and see how you feel after that. If the fly screens were able to be fixed then it might be a runner but as they are emergency exits this can't happen either unless you put seals on them maybe or alarms? 

 

Any chance you can get AC? 

 

I've had two low risk sites with, admittedly previous versions of BRC but we had fly screens over doors and it wasn't raised as an issue.  It wouldn't be acceptable in high care / high risk and you'd need to think security but otherwise I see nothing in BRC which prevents it.



Thanked by 1 Member:

#6 ISOKirst

ISOKirst

    Grade - Active

  • IFSQN Active
  • 7 posts
  • 1 thanks
0
Neutral

  • United Kingdom
    United Kingdom

Posted 03 July 2019 - 04:15 PM

We (packaging supplier) have fly screens on a couple of external doors with a very fine mesh and there are brush bars on the bottom. 
AC not possible in some areas and the heat is an issue occasionally.
It's never been raised at audit. We are a basic hygiene site. 
The site is secure so the issue of intruders isn't an option and we included it on a risk assessment which included reviewing pest control results, site security, hygiene etc.  

 



Thanked by 1 Member:

#7 mgourley

mgourley

    Grade - FIFSQN

  • IFSQN Fellow
  • 1,211 posts
  • 895 thanks
172
Excellent

  • United States
    United States
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Plant City, FL
  • Interests:Cooking, golf, firearms, food safety and sanitation.

Posted 03 July 2019 - 09:22 PM

If you can manage to exclude pests with screens. Yes.

If you can manage to show an auditor that unauthorized people will NOT access your facility through open doors. Yes.

If you can't show that unauthorized people will NOT access your facility through open doors. No.

 

Marshall



Thanked by 1 Member:

#8 mahantesh.micro

mahantesh.micro

    Grade - MIFSQN

  • IFSQN Member
  • 150 posts
  • 74 thanks
20
Excellent

  • India
    India
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Bangalore- Karnataka (India)
  • Interests:Food Safety Standards, Specification developments, Procedures
    Other interests are- cricket and indoor games

Posted 04 July 2019 - 04:39 AM

Thanks both for your replies. I think the doors would be probably just like the fire doors (which aren't actually sealed around the edges) but with mesh. We could definitely fit brushes etc.

 

I doubt it with AC, we are not a big manufacturer and it would be costly I would imagine.

 

It's a bit of a awkward one, I'm going to try and contact BRC and see if they can offer any advice on it also but open to any suggestions!

 

This is such a great resource, esp for someone new to BRC like myself.

what about exhaust fans which will remove hot air from the room??



#9 sarahm96

sarahm96

    Grade - Active

  • IFSQN Active
  • 14 posts
  • 0 thanks
0
Neutral

  • United Kingdom
    United Kingdom

Posted 04 July 2019 - 07:35 AM

what about exhaust fans which will remove hot air from the room??

Thanks I'll look into that!



#10 sarahm96

sarahm96

    Grade - Active

  • IFSQN Active
  • 14 posts
  • 0 thanks
0
Neutral

  • United Kingdom
    United Kingdom

Posted 04 July 2019 - 07:46 AM

To get round the issue of intruders, I don't know if we could alarm the fly/screen doors? 



#11 JohannesTrithemius

JohannesTrithemius

    Grade - AIFSQN

  • IFSQN Associate
  • 32 posts
  • 8 thanks
5
Neutral

  • Canada
    Canada

Posted 04 July 2019 - 03:21 PM

Install stand alone/industrial air conditioners.



Thanked by 1 Member:

#12 mgourley

mgourley

    Grade - FIFSQN

  • IFSQN Fellow
  • 1,211 posts
  • 895 thanks
172
Excellent

  • United States
    United States
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Plant City, FL
  • Interests:Cooking, golf, firearms, food safety and sanitation.

Posted 04 July 2019 - 03:37 PM

The problem with installing exhaust vents is installing them. I have no idea about your building make up, but generally they are installed in the ceiling or high up on a non-load bearing wall.
Is the roof capable of handling the weight of the exhaust units? If you want to put them in the walls, structurally, is it possible?

What will you do to ensure food safety when holes are being cut in your facility?
Since you are a packaging manufacturer, you don't have to deal with the change in air flow, which would otherwise be an issue for facilities with allergen concerns.

 

I guess I have been working in the industry too long. When I hear people complain about how hot it is in the facility, my glib answer is "It's a bakery. It's not a bank" :)

 

Marshall



Thanked by 1 Member:

#13 Foodworker

Foodworker

    Grade - SIFSQN

  • IFSQN Senior
  • 266 posts
  • 195 thanks
13
Good

  • United Kingdom
    United Kingdom

Posted 08 July 2019 - 05:40 PM

On the whole, there is nothing against it providing they are properly fitted and they work. You might fall foul of fire and other H&S risk assessments so so think it through noting what other means of staff egress are available.

 

You can demonstrate their efficacy by showing EFK counts before and after installation. 

 

Of course, as it is BRC, risk analysis comes into play so update this and a statement from your pest controller will help in the justification. (I once had a non conformity for not having a risk assessment for removing a self closing mechanism from a door on the advice of the fire brigade).

 

It will also, as mentioned, impact on security so don't forget to review and update your security risk assessment.



Thanked by 1 Member:

#14 sarahm96

sarahm96

    Grade - Active

  • IFSQN Active
  • 14 posts
  • 0 thanks
0
Neutral

  • United Kingdom
    United Kingdom

Posted 09 July 2019 - 07:13 AM

Thanks all, I'll get RA up to date for all the areas. For security I would like to alarm the screen doors but not lock (as they will be fitted in front of fire doors).



#15 AHJ

AHJ

    Grade - Active

  • IFSQN Active
  • 21 posts
  • 12 thanks
6
Neutral

  • United States
    United States

Posted 09 July 2019 - 08:01 AM

We've installed screen doors in addition to all of our overhead garage doors in our plant. It is terribly hot in our region of the US and the screens are down all summer long during production days instead of our overhead garage doors. They are retractable overhead doors, they just happen to be screens and run right along parallel tracks of the solid doors. On weekends when we are not in production and have the solid doors down temperatures reach to ranges of 120F. So we wrote a risk assessment stating that the screens are absolutely necessary for ventilation and internal temperatures. That passes the SQF audit every year. Our auditors have never told us to get rid of them or find a different solution. 



Thanked by 1 Member:

#16 Andrew0520

Andrew0520

    Grade - Active

  • IFSQN Active
  • 2 posts
  • 0 thanks
1
Neutral

  • Taiwan
    Taiwan

Posted 07 November 2019 - 02:52 AM

We are a plastic packaging manufacture and we use exults fans with covers which auto shuts when no airflow, example below, 

 

https://www.homedepo...14UPS/202794270



#17 mohamed ramadan

mohamed ramadan

    Grade - Active

  • IFSQN Active
  • 12 posts
  • 0 thanks
0
Neutral

  • Egypt
    Egypt

Posted 07 November 2019 - 04:37 AM

if you can use air flow curtain on the door , i think it will be nice 



#18 GMO

GMO

    Grade - FIFSQN

  • IFSQN Fellow
  • 2,658 posts
  • 675 thanks
162
Excellent

  • United Kingdom
    United Kingdom

Posted 07 November 2019 - 03:17 PM

if you can use air flow curtain on the door , i think it will be nice 

 

Air curtains don't stop rodents so no.



#19 crystalbee

crystalbee

    Grade - Active

  • IFSQN Active
  • 21 posts
  • 5 thanks
1
Neutral

  • United States
    United States

Posted 07 November 2019 - 03:38 PM

All answers above are good points.

Another thing I would like to add, is that it really depends on your auditor. We are also BRC.

Our most recent auditor this year said it would not be acceptable from a food defense and security point, so we got an NC on that, even though our main thought was controlling pests from entering in our hot summers. Our auditor last year, however, didn't pay attention to it. 

If practical, maybe install AC or large fans into the production space to solve this issue?



#20 annette@ussugar

annette@ussugar

    Grade - Active

  • IFSQN Associate
  • 11 posts
  • 3 thanks
4
Neutral

  • United States
    United States
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Buffalo

Posted 07 November 2019 - 07:25 PM

I also believe that this idea would fail a BRC inspection. BRC Issue 8, states in 4.2 Site Security and Food Defense

Systems shall protect products, PREMISES and brands from malicious actions while under the control of the site. 

Screen doors can not protect a person from entering the facility, but it will all depend on your auditor.

In my opinion, site security should be just as important as pest control. You never know what or who that will approach.



#21 Ryan M.

Ryan M.

    Grade - PIFSQN

  • IFSQN Principal
  • 849 posts
  • 346 thanks
126
Excellent

  • United States
    United States
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Birmingham, AL
  • Interests:Reading, crosswords, passionate discussions, laughing at US politics.

Posted 07 November 2019 - 09:39 PM

Something to consider is renting industrial AC units during the hotter months.  My current facility tried this over the last summer and it worked reasonably well.  The caveat is you have to make an exhaust port for the hot air to go outside of the facility.  We didn't do a very good job of this...basically, just shut the roll up doors down on the exhaust air while leaving a pretty wide open gap in the bottom of the doors.  Maintenance tried to jerry rig a panel over it, but it wasn't that great.

 

Perhaps it is something your facility can look at.  You can get these AC units from the large industrial rental agencies like United Rentals.



#22 GMO

GMO

    Grade - FIFSQN

  • IFSQN Fellow
  • 2,658 posts
  • 675 thanks
162
Excellent

  • United Kingdom
    United Kingdom

Posted 08 November 2019 - 08:43 AM

All answers above are good points.

Another thing I would like to add, is that it really depends on your auditor. We are also BRC.

Our most recent auditor this year said it would not be acceptable from a food defense and security point, so we got an NC on that

 

Yes, I made that point further up that it's also a food defence issue.  It greatly depends on your door design.  So for example if the mesh you use is not easily "cutable" or if there is a grid over it which nobody could get through and the door design is the same as a firedoor type so with a crash handle or "break glass" on the inside then I don't see why not.  Where it becomes a problem is if you don't have any control on it and if the door leads outside of a secured site barrier.  I recently got fly screen doors removed from some areas in my factory for this very reason.  There was no way to secure them and the door let to an area outside the perimeter.







0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

EV SSL Certificate