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Why would captured mice be an audit non-conformance?

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OG Bean

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 02:20 PM

During a recent SQF audit, it was observed that 2 mice had been captured during a 12 month period.  We have a 75,000 square foot facility and the mice were captured by doors that have heavy traffic in and out.  This was not written as a non-conformity, but we were told that if we had captured 4 mice it would have been a non-conformity.

 

This seems unreasonable, it's not an infestation and the pest control program is doing its job.  Why is 4 mice the limit and where did that number come from?  Should our pest control records never show anything?  What's the point of the traps if not to capture the occasional rogue mouse.

 

Am I missing something here? :helpplease:

 

  



QAGB

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 03:44 PM

Sounds like a question for one of the SQF folks on here, but I am finding it odd that there is an actual imposed limit on the number of mice. I could see an auditor requesting some kind of corrective action for frequent mouse occurrences, but haven't heard of an actual limit before. If the auditor saw a mouse or had reason to think that you have potential for mouse ingress into the production area (rather than at exterior doors), there would be certainly far more cause for concern.



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Posted 12 August 2019 - 06:38 PM

During a recent SQF audit, it was observed that 2 mice had been captured during a 12 month period.  We have a 75,000 square foot facility and the mice were captured by doors that have heavy traffic in and out.  This was not written as a non-conformity, but we were told that if we had captured 4 mice it would have been a non-conformity.

 

This seems unreasonable, it's not an infestation and the pest control program is doing its job.  Why is 4 mice the limit and where did that number come from?  Should our pest control records never show anything?  What's the point of the traps if not to capture the occasional rogue mouse.

 

Am I missing something here? :helpplease:

 

....

 


 

 

Oh, my that is funny!  

 

More Auditor BS

And where did it come from --- sounds like it came out of his/her butt.


Edited by Charles.C, 14 August 2019 - 07:27 PM.
reformatted

Kind regards,
Glenn Oster
 
GOC BUSINESS GROUP | SQF System Development, Implementation & Certification Consultants
Internal Auditor Training - eConsultant Retainer Subscriptions - Pre & Post SQF-GAP Audits - Consultant Training
Visit us @ http://www.GlennOster.com  or call us @ 772.646.4115 US-EST 8am-4pm Anyday except Thursday
 
 

QAGB

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 07:03 PM

 

During a recent SQF audit, it was observed that 2 mice had been captured during a 12 month period.  We have a 75,000 square foot facility and the mice were captured by doors that have heavy traffic in and out.  This was not written as a non-conformity, but we were told that if we had captured 4 mice it would have been a non-conformity.

 

This seems unreasonable, it's not an infestation and the pest control program is doing its job.  Why is 4 mice the limit and where did that number come from?  Should our pest control records never show anything?  What's the point of the traps if not to capture the occasional rogue mouse.

 

Am I missing something here? :helpplease:

 

....

 

Oh, my that is funny!  

 

More Auditor BS

And where did it come from --- sounds like it came out of his/her butt.

 

 

:rofl2:


Edited by Charles.C, 14 August 2019 - 07:30 PM.
reformatted


dfreund

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 04:48 PM

My 2018 SQF audit said one mouse is too many... not one more would be too many.

 

I thought catching them was good too.  But now I understand that within hours of capture the fur mobilizes and can carry problems further than you may think.   Thank you to my diligent auditor for calling us to a higher standard.

 

Seal the facility "envelope" and keep them outside. We upped our game sealing wall/floor junctures and increasing the bait stations OUTSIDE from 40 to 75.  That plus a professional, food savvy PCO has us down to zero since the changes.

 

I may also be fortunate in that I saw a fox a few blocks away and a grain processing facility across the tracks (probably easier and more attractive than us).  I will be monitoring very closely when the weather turns cold.

 

Good luck, pest presence and pest controls are a conditions to manage not problems to fix and be done with.  Those little guys never give up!  I don't think they have anything better to do.



Charles.C

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 06:15 PM

So what did yr contracted pest control Company say ? No significant problem ?


Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


OG Bean

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 07:08 PM

My 2018 SQF audit said one mouse is too many... not one more would be too many.

 

I thought catching them was good too.  But now I understand that within hours of capture the fur mobilizes and can carry problems further than you may think.   Thank you to my diligent auditor for calling us to a higher standard.

 

Seal the facility "envelope" and keep them outside. We upped our game sealing wall/floor junctures and increasing the bait stations OUTSIDE from 40 to 75.  That plus a professional, food savvy PCO has us down to zero since the changes.

 

I may also be fortunate in that I saw a fox a few blocks away and a grain processing facility across the tracks (probably easier and more attractive than us).  I will be monitoring very closely when the weather turns cold.

 

Good luck, pest presence and pest controls are a conditions to manage not problems to fix and be done with.  Those little guys never give up!  I don't think they have anything better to do.

 

My concern here is, if you take a zero tolerance in our facility.  What's the action if one is caught.  Do you shut the facility down?  Do you destroy product?  If it's that significant of a risk is it not a Preventive Control or CCP now? 

 

We have overhead doors that automatically open and close for the folk truck traffic, to think a mouse would never run in seems very unrealistic.

 

It's Pest Control not Pest Elimination.  Common sense needs to be applied to standards with these audits and auditors. 



OG Bean

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 07:13 PM

So what did yr contracted pest control Company say ? No significant problem ?

 

Our PCO did not view it as a significant issue considering our operation, the capture locations, and time between captures.



Charles.C

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 07:25 PM

Our PCO did not view it as a significant issue considering our operation, the capture locations, and time between captures.

 

Which one would have thought should have satisfied SQF.

 

But, for no obvious reason, apparently not. Suggests  "Nitpicking".


Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


csesc

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 08:58 PM

Hi! I work with BRC standard and I have been said almost the same: there can't be 2 catches in a 3 month period. When I detect one mouse inside a trap I fill in a register sheet recording if there is product near, if it is affected, corrective actions, etc.

 

Thanks "dfreund" for your reply! I found it interesting.

Regards



Charles.C

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 09:56 PM

Hi OG Bean,

 

One more query (Trying to be fair to SQF auditor) -

 

What kind of Production/Environment is involved, ie typical-critical for attracting/supplying rodents or the opposite ? (eg Grain would perhaps not exactly be the same risk assessment as compared to NASA)

(Normally I would expect a Pest Control Company to include such Variables)


Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


kettlecorn

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 02:55 PM

My 2018 SQF audit said one mouse is too many... not one more would be too many.

 

I thought catching them was good too.  But now I understand that within hours of capture the fur mobilizes and can carry problems further than you may think.   Thank you to my diligent auditor for calling us to a higher standard.

 

Seal the facility "envelope" and keep them outside. We upped our game sealing wall/floor junctures and increasing the bait stations OUTSIDE from 40 to 75.  That plus a professional, food savvy PCO has us down to zero since the changes.

 

I may also be fortunate in that I saw a fox a few blocks away and a grain processing facility across the tracks (probably easier and more attractive than us).  I will be monitoring very closely when the weather turns cold.

 

Good luck, pest presence and pest controls are a conditions to manage not problems to fix and be done with.  Those little guys never give up!  I don't think they have anything better to do.

 

What exactly does "the fur mobilizes" mean? Are you talking about a dead mouse or a live mouse? I've never heard that phrase used before. 



QAGB

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 03:36 PM

Hi! I work with BRC standard and I have been said almost the same: there can't be 2 catches in a 3 month period. When I detect one mouse inside a trap I fill in a register sheet recording if there is product near, if it is affected, corrective actions, etc.

 

Thanks "dfreund" for your reply! I found it interesting.

Regards

 

I have worked with BRC too, and have never seen such a quantification. Where is this in the standard? I think the general idea is to keep your production facility sealed up well so the exterior bait stations are attractive enough to mice to keep them outside. 



dfreund

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 04:27 PM

Kettlecorn:

    I was told the fur falls off/ comes off the animal shortly after they expire.  I had some remote stations that did not have a tin box, just a sticky trap.  Any disturbance of the air by a passing forklift or even foot traffic and distribute the problem. Not good.

 

 

    We quickly replaced the incumbent PCO. He was a good guy and lived up to the standard we allowed, but was not sophisticated enough for the record keeping and proactive approaches needed for a food manufacturer.



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Ryan M.

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 12:16 AM

In my mind it really depends on the frequency and locations of the captures. If you get 2 mice captured in the same device over the span of a couples week or months that is located near ingredients or products you got a problem.

 

Conversely, if you have 4 mice caught in one month on exterior areas in different traps nowhere near one another it raises an eyebrow and you monitor closely, but it isn't indicative of a problem.  Your traps are simply doing the job they are designed to do.

 

In my current facility I guess we had a large problem with mice / rats around the exterior of the facility so they added more bait stations to the outer fence line (about 30 feet from the facility).  We get regular hits on the outer fence line because it butts up against tall grass, a shoddy neighborhood, and a ravine (get plenty of water in it). It is questioned by auditors and regulators, but we explain to them the location and also we have exterior bait stations between the fence line and the facility in our exterior of the facility.  We also never get nibbles on the inner bait stations at exterior of facility...I think maybe 2 times from the 4 buildings in 16 months I've been here.



Leila Burin

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Posted 17 August 2019 - 01:29 PM

Hello

Absolutely ridiculous to standard the mice captures for all facilities regarding their size, location, and activity. Another thing is an INFESTATION. Send that auditor to do a risk assessment course…

Best regards,

Leila



KSR

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Posted 19 August 2019 - 04:15 PM

just a thought.  were they referring to some type of threshold / action level that the pco indicated in the program (example attached)? I agree that blindly stating catching "X" mice is a non-conformity does not make sense. 

Attached Files



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johnmcip

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Posted 03 June 2021 - 01:35 PM

Solution: glue tin cat entrances shut. Alakazam! No more mice!



kingstudruler1

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Posted 04 June 2021 - 06:36 PM

just a thought.  were they referring to some type of threshold / action level that the pco indicated in the program (example attached)? I agree that blindly stating catching "X" mice is a non-conformity does not make sense. 

i was thinking the same thing, but the auditor should have made that clear.   







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