55 replies to this topic

[Simon]

As usual in HACCP, the problem of quantitation is highly (totally?) subjective.  I confess I don't know the answers but I suggest such complexities illustrate the limitations of HACCP. It is an amazing tool but can only be relied on within a defined framework which the hazard analysis frequently sidesteps.

I couldn't agree with you more Charles.

I wonder whether it would be prudent to have at least one senior member of the management team (the more senior the better) on the HACCP team in order that we might avoid a Shittlegroover type incident.

That provokes another question who is the most senior (in terms of organisational structure) member of your HACCP team?

Regards,
Simon

[Charles Chew]

Hi Simon,

A system is only as good as you make it to be. As in the case of HACCP, it is very much a science and process based system particularly where understanding of hazards and the ability to analyse are vital criteria.

However, most of the time, the "more senior the better" approach just does not fit in like a glove. Having a senior who lacks knowledge in sciences including other pertinent issues in HACCP is not going to help drive an effective team. Instead, it could well be the blind leading the blind.

For sure, having a senior member of the organization in the team does help to promote management commitment.

I also like to emphasise that HACCP is a great tool if used correctly with knowledge. It covers all areas of major concern in food safey management BUT sadly, the limitations and the tendency to err remains that of the humans.

In conclusion, no system is perfect and HACCP is no different. There can never be a HACCP System out there that assures its products are 100% safe ALL THE TIME. That is why we have deviations and non-conformances.

A Senior Person helps to place confidence but not necessarily the Team Leader. I find it prudent to have a Food Technologist (QA or QC) to be the Team Leader but having said that all team members have an equal and vital role to play in their respective field of expertise/responsibilities.

I hope we are on the same page.

Regards
Charles Chew

[Simon]

However, most of the time, the "more senior the better" approach just does not fit in like a glove. Having a senior who lacks knowledge in sciences including other pertinent issues in HACCP is not going to help drive an effective team. Instead, it could well be the blind leading the blind.

Hi Charles,

I didn't intend that the CEO would lead the HACCP team - like you say it is very unlikely the CEO would possess the specialist scientific knowledge required for the role.

What the CEO may bring to the HACCP team is perhaps a higher level view of the business and the ability to provide a different, possibly commercial perspective. Is it not better to have an agreed compromise at this stage whilst working through the various risk scenarios? If nothing else it would help to create more understanding and I believe it would definitely help to increase management commitment. In my opinion as long as the prerequisite skills are inherent in the HACCP team then after this the wider the scope of expertise the better

Regards,
Simon

[Charles Chew]

If nothing else it would help to create more understanding and I believe it would definitely help to increase management commitment. In my opinion as long as the prerequisite skills are inherent in the HACCP team then after this the wider the scope of expertise the better


Absolutely in sync in you.

Charles Chew

[yorkshire]

A Senior Person helps to place confidence but not necessarily the Team Leader. I find it prudent to have a Food Technologist (QA or QC) to be the Team Leader but having said that all team members have an equal and vital role to play in their respective field of expertise/responsibilities.

I am a senior manager reporting in to the board of directors and a food technologist. I am not the team leader but let one of my staff run it. However us technical people are always committed to HACCP and it is important to involve production management (but not all the time). IMO you need grass roots production people - they tell you what is really happening! If their boss is always at the meeting they may not be so forthcoming.

[Simon]

I am a senior manager reporting in to the board of directors and a food technologist. I am not the team leader but let one of my staff run it. However us technical people are always committed to HACCP and it is important to involve production management (but not all the time). IMO you need grass roots production people - they tell you what is really happening! If their boss is always at the meeting they may not be so forthcoming.

The voice of experience.

[Charles Chew]

Honestly, why should a Janitor not be the Team Leader afterall he should know everything about cleaning and sanitation and the concept of "Total Hygiene Management (THM" better than any body else)

THM is the way to go on your first line of pest control management system - ensuring zero tolerance for food remnants and spillages.......covering overall waste management program.

He can probably tell you a thing or two about personal hygiene including how to store your ingredients and materials in the right manner..........etc

Well, if only he has a capable assistant who understands a bit of quality system management - they would make a perfect pair.

If a FSMS Auditor can be engineered, I am sure we can engineer a FSMS Team Leader out of a Janitor

[Simon]

Honestly, why should a Janitor not be the Team Leader afterall he should know everything about cleaning and sanitation and the concept of "Total Hygiene Management (THM" better than any body else)

Indeed why not. However, I think this thread is more about Senior Management taking an active role in the FSMS versus delegating their responsibility to juniors.

Regards,

Simon

[just me]

Dear Simon,

Pertaining to this thread of discussion, I have a problem with people practising HACCP system. We all know, 'tis a technical thing, that's why the team leader position is most of the time being pushed to the QA person, or sometimes the production person.

The problem it that, other entities of the system shuns from being part of it. Even when management is committed, most responsibilities are pushed to QA, ie the perception "HACCP belongs to QA". There is no sense of ownership on the system by other entities, especially the sales and marketing. I always pitied the QA person...It has becomed to department based rather than process based.

Is this also hapenning in UK?

Any ideas how to involve this entities, besides forcing them to be a member of the team?

Cheers,

[MartLgn]

The problem it that, other entities of the system shuns from being part of it. Even when management is committed, most responsibilities are pushed to QA, ie the perception "HACCP belongs to QA". There is no sense of ownership on the system by other entities, especially the sales and marketing. I always pitied the QA person...It has becomed to department based rather than process based.

Is this also hapenning in UK?

Any ideas how to involve this entities, besides forcing them to be a member of the team?

Thats a very accurate observation in relation to some companies where HACCP is definitely seen to belong to the QA folks. One of the pitfalls of having a multidisciplinary team is that the various departments have their own finely crafted ways of avoiding the meetings, production and engineering will play the 'too busy getting the lines to run' card and for many sales people HACCP is just 5 letters they put on the proposal document to a prospective new customer along with various innacurate descriptions of other certifications. One approach that may go some way to getting the right people on board is to suggest that if they aren't involved then they cannot grumble about the end result.

In companies with a lean staff there is often the temptation to let those who have been on the course just get on with it and don't go bothering those with more important things to be getting on with.

[yorkshire]

Thats a very accurate observation in relation to some companies where HACCP is definitely seen to belong to the QA folks. One of the pitfalls of having a multidisciplinary team is that the various departments have their own finely crafted ways of avoiding the meetings, production and engineering will play the 'too busy getting the lines to run' card

Another problem with a team approach is the time it takes to carry out the initial study. In the past I have found it best to do the initial study with just one or two people (it is essential they understand the process though!) to get the basics down, I have then used the multidisciplinary team to work on this and fine tune it. This way identifies the obvious risks (but maybe not all of them!) and gets them under control quickly.

Organisation of HACCP is seen as a QA/Technical job on our site (along with all the other jobs) but I think that the factory floor feel that they can have an input. Operators, engineers, QA,.... are involved in our team and during our HACCP meetings now we spend about 50% of the time on the factory floor. This is usually used for observing the process / procedures and we tend to ask non HACCP team staff for their views as well, or to explain how we have come to a decision. As long as staff see HACCP as just a paperwork exercise you will never get the real commitment.

[Simon]

Another problem with a team approach is the time it takes to carry out the initial study. In the past I have found it best to do the initial study with just one or two people (it is essential they understand the process though!) to get the basics down, I have then used the multidisciplinary team to work on this and fine tune it. This way identifies the obvious risks (but maybe not all of them!) and gets them under control quickly.

Organisation of HACCP is seen as a QA/Technical job on our site (along with all the other jobs) but I think that the factory floor feel that they can have an input. Operators, engineers, QA,.... are involved in our team and during our HACCP meetings now we spend about 50% of the time on the factory floor. This is usually used for observing the process / procedures and we tend to ask non HACCP team staff for their views as well, or to explain how we have come to a decision. As long as staff see HACCP as just a paperwork exercise you will never get the real commitment.

Agree with everything you say Yorky - a very sensible and intelligent approach.

Regards,

Simon

[yorkshire]

Agree with everything you say Yorky - a very sensible and intelligent approach.

[just me]

:Organisation of HACCP is seen as a QA/Technical job on our site (along with all the other jobs) but I think that the factory floor feel that they can have an input. Operators, engineers, QA,.... are involved in our team and during our HACCP meetings now we spend about 50% of the time on the factory floor. This is usually used for observing the process / procedures and we tend to ask non HACCP team staff for their views as well, or to explain how we have come to a decision. As long as staff see HACCP as just a paperwork exercise you will never get the real commitment.

I think that's a great idea, may suggest that to my clients next time. It would at least make these other entities feel more invoved..

Thanks.

Cheers,

[Jenny]

For my company, we put senoir manager as part of our HACCP team because we believe that HACCP program is absolutely needed a huge support from upper managements in terms of budget. Of course, food technologist is usually a key position who verifies, maintains and reassess HACCP, however, senior management needs to involve and support in financial aspects. So we put senior management as part of our HACCP team.

Jenny

[Simon]

For my company, we put senoir manager as part of our HACCP team because we believe that HACCP program is absolutely needed a huge support from upper managements in terms of budget. Of course, food technologist is usually a key position who verifies, maintains and reassess HACCP, however, senior management needs to involve and support in financial aspects. So we put senior management as part of our HACCP team.

Jenny

May I ask what function is the senor manager from; also are they sincerely willing?

Simon

[Jenny]

May I ask what function is the senor manager from; also are they sincerely willing?

Simon

He's a technical service senoir manager and VP of manufacturing. They're willing to.
Jenny

[Simon]

Thanks Jenny.

[KellyB]

Dear All,
I've seen all your opinions and I have voted "CEO/President" because he is the most Senior member in our HACCP team. In real terms, he is only getting informed of what is happening and gives the final permission and signature concerning most of the matters. I believe that most of the times it has to do with the type of company and the profile of the company. For us, it is kind of a "family company", dealing only with importing-storage-distribution, run by father and son, with only 15 people and very few departments. The quality control dept. began to exist when the decision for the HACCP standardisation was taken. The team is made of the son/president/managing director (all in one), the warehouse director, the customers'-follow-up director and me, including two outside consultants, one dealing with food hygiene matters and one dealing with law matters. We come together once a month in order to discuss any matter that has occured. What is really happening is that the HACCP coordinator (...me), being just a Middle manager, keeps track of everything and deals with most of the matters and all the others are just following orders or forwarding important information. The President either does not have the time or simply doesn't bother with most of the cases, ever since he realized that things are going smoothly without the need for his presence. But let me tell you that on the other hand, for cases that are really important, he shows everyone who is the Leader. After 3 1/2 years Haccp accredited, we find that we don't really need to change anything and everybody is happy... (letting me worry about everything !)
Regards
Kelly B.

[Simon]

Dear All,
I've seen all your opinions and I have voted "CEO/President" because he is the most Senior member in our HACCP team. In real terms, he is only getting informed of what is happening and gives the final permission and signature concerning most of the matters. I believe that most of the times it has to do with the type of company and the profile of the company. For us, it is kind of a "family company", dealing only with importing-storage-distribution, run by father and son, with only 15 people and very few departments. The quality control dept. began to exist when the decision for the HACCP standardisation was taken. The team is made of the son/president/managing director (all in one), the warehouse director, the customers'-follow-up director and me, including two outside consultants, one dealing with food hygiene matters and one dealing with law matters. We come together once a month in order to discuss any matter that has occured. What is really happening is that the HACCP coordinator (...me), being just a Middle manager, keeps track of everything and deals with most of the matters and all the others are just following orders or forwarding important information. The President either does not have the time or simply doesn't bother with most of the cases, ever since he realized that things are going smoothly without the need for his presence. But let me tell you that on the other hand, for cases that are really important, he shows everyone who is the Leader. After 3 1/2 years Haccp accredited, we find that we don't really need to change anything and everybody is happy... (letting me worry about everything !)
Regards
Kelly B.

Thank you for the interesting insight into your company Kelly. The CEO / President does not need to be involved in every minute detail to show commitment, he trusts you to do that for him. It is also clear that he provides the necessary resources to maintain an effective FSMS. Thanks.

Simon

[YongYM]

Together with my ex-colleague, we were given the task to set up the company's HACCP system about 8 years ago as both of us have the background in food science & technology. [At that time, both of us were still the executives in the company]

After she left, I handled the food safety system until now for two plants. Last year, I also managed to assist our sister company in achieving ISO 22000. [I am now the middle manager in the company]

[Simon]

Together with my ex-colleague, we were given the task to set up the company's HACCP system about 8 years ago as both of us have the background in food science & technology. [At that time, both of us were still the executives in the company]

After she left, I handled the food safety system until now for two plants. Last year, I also managed to assist our sister company in achieving ISO 22000. [I am now the middle manager in the company]

What level is an Executive - is moving to Middle Manager a promotion?

[Jean]

Dear All,



In our organization, the Food Safety Specialist is the HACCP team leader (middle management). The General Manager and the Executive Manager (top management) are the representatives who are present for the HACCP meetings/management reviews to offer support and does financial approvals. Their involvement provides strong management commitment. But the FSMS is run and managed by the qualified and competent food safety specialist who reports any deficiencies to the top management to make them aware of the situation and also provides advice and ensures the corrective actions are taken. The feedback is then given to the senior or top management.



Regards,



J

[YongYM]

What level is an Executive - is moving to Middle Manager a promotion?

Yes, Simon..

[GMO]

It's an interesting question when you come to the "senior management commitment" section of the BRC. Perhaps there should be a once or twice a year review with senior management or if there was a major change / major rewrite.

The fact is though I'd rather have people in the team who know what really goes on (i.e. the operators, shop floor team leaders etc.) but it could be good to use it as a tool to get funding for those long standing food safety issues you never seem to get signed off...