Jump to content

  • Quick Navigation
Photo

ATP swabs


  • You cannot start a new topic
  • Please log in to reply
13 replies to this topic

#1 The Food Scientist

The Food Scientist

    Grade - FIFSQN

  • IFSQN Fellow
  • 1,025 posts
  • 261 thanks
198
Excellent

  • United States
    United States
  • Gender:Female
  • Interests:Food Science, Nature, SQF, Learning, Trying out new foods, Sarcasm.

Posted 12 July 2021 - 05:00 PM

Hello !!! We are a juice bottling facility. Our bottle filler gets manual clean, CIP (which includes sanitizer) and then it is ATP swabbed. We have a 9 RLU limit on ATP.  As of recently we have been seeing a lot of failures in our ATP and I have been approving a few of them because it is time consuming. They would just re-spray with sanitizer and re-swab and the level would either go UP (despite spraying with sanitizer) or remain the same with a slight decrease. We use OXINE sanitizer at levels of 15-30oppm.  As of recently they are failing wayy to much and it has been a hassle on identifying the root cause. We have been taking a few action plans as in replacing any brushes they manually clean with often. We obviously monitor the sanitizer as well. After reading a few online articles, I have come across as ATP readings can also come from product residue, especially organic. Has anyone fell into this? Also I read that ATP swabbing occurs BEFORE sanitizer and after cleaning. Some parts are not really CIPed with the filler bowl, rather they are manually cleaned and sanitized with Oxine. These parts are always HIGH in ATP almost all the time. I am thinking it is due to the sanitizer that is leaving organic residue, affecting ATP counts? Here is what I am reading, from this article linked below. If anyone has been through this, I would love some feedback and what did they do. "If a sample has an increase in organisms or organic residues, there will be an increase in ATP, and therefore an increase in RLUs." https://food-safety-...handling-areas/


Edited by Jacob Timperley, 12 July 2021 - 11:17 PM.

Everything in food is science. The only subjective part is when you eat it. - Alton Brown.


#2 Scampi

Scampi

    Fellow

  • IFSQN Fellow
  • 3,644 posts
  • 981 thanks
602
Excellent

  • Canada
    Canada
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 12 July 2021 - 05:25 PM

ATPs should be done post clean PRE sanitizer................you're actually reading the sanitizer at the moment which is why all the fails

 

 

ATP is designed to measure how much "stuff" is present..........since H2O is virtually inert, ATP swabs are done post potable rinse pre swab so you're only measuring the "stuff" that was left behind from cleaning


Edited by Scampi, 12 July 2021 - 05:25 PM.

Please stop referring to me as Sir/sirs


#3 Scampi

Scampi

    Fellow

  • IFSQN Fellow
  • 3,644 posts
  • 981 thanks
602
Excellent

  • Canada
    Canada
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 12 July 2021 - 05:27 PM

https://www.aibinter...is-atp-swabbing

 

https://www.hygiena....sked-questions/

 

https://www.sanitati...s.com/pages/faq


Please stop referring to me as Sir/sirs


#4 The Food Scientist

The Food Scientist

    Grade - FIFSQN

  • IFSQN Fellow
  • 1,025 posts
  • 261 thanks
198
Excellent

  • United States
    United States
  • Gender:Female
  • Interests:Food Science, Nature, SQF, Learning, Trying out new foods, Sarcasm.

Posted 12 July 2021 - 06:03 PM

I swear I had a feeling............... we've been swabbing after sanitizer.

 

So normally then if pre sanitizer, there will be a higher count (higher than 9 our maximum). I believe it should be raised then. 


Everything in food is science. The only subjective part is when you eat it. - Alton Brown.


#5 The Food Scientist

The Food Scientist

    Grade - FIFSQN

  • IFSQN Fellow
  • 1,025 posts
  • 261 thanks
198
Excellent

  • United States
    United States
  • Gender:Female
  • Interests:Food Science, Nature, SQF, Learning, Trying out new foods, Sarcasm.

Posted 12 July 2021 - 06:14 PM

Can someone in a similar manufacturing setting let me know what is their ATP limit? Because ours is 9 and I doubt you'd get less than a 9 after cleaning pre sanitizer.


Everything in food is science. The only subjective part is when you eat it. - Alton Brown.


#6 Scampi

Scampi

    Fellow

  • IFSQN Fellow
  • 3,644 posts
  • 981 thanks
602
Excellent

  • Canada
    Canada
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 12 July 2021 - 06:17 PM

Nope, not necessarily---as you've been getting a value post sanitizer-I would actually expect your values to go down 1-2 points

 

When i was in poultry, we could get a 5 post clean-------------

 

You really should start from scratch and build a baseline of data

 

By that i mean an ATP swab a thon for the next couple of weeks (i hope you've got the dashboard set up well) 

 

Then extrapolate that data.............what's reasonable and realistic for your sanitation crew to achieve


Please stop referring to me as Sir/sirs


#7 Ryan M.

Ryan M.

    Grade - FIFSQN

  • IFSQN Fellow
  • 1,203 posts
  • 439 thanks
238
Excellent

  • United States
    United States
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Birmingham, AL
  • Interests:Reading, crosswords, passionate discussions, laughing at US politics.

Posted 12 July 2021 - 06:23 PM

ATP limits should be set for each facility and equipment; not all are the same.

 

As far as what you are seeing, yes you need to swab post cleaning and rinse, prior to sanitizing.  The major swab suppliers will tell you until they are blue in the face sanitizer does not affect ATP swab reading, but honestly they are full of it.  We see the same issue, but we don't have a good way to stop and swab after cleaning and before sanitizing at the moment.  What we do when a part fails on our fillers, typically the capping system, it is sprayed with a solution of chlorine.  Not sure why chlorine works, but it does work to lower the RLU.

 

If this is a recent change for you I would look at who is doing the cleaning.  Are they newer operators?  Or, what else may have changed?  Possibly the chemicals or water supply.  Any production changes, such as running equipment longer than previously?  Sanitation changes?



#8 The Food Scientist

The Food Scientist

    Grade - FIFSQN

  • IFSQN Fellow
  • 1,025 posts
  • 261 thanks
198
Excellent

  • United States
    United States
  • Gender:Female
  • Interests:Food Science, Nature, SQF, Learning, Trying out new foods, Sarcasm.

Posted 12 July 2021 - 06:36 PM

ATP limits should be set for each facility and equipment; not all are the same.

 

As far as what you are seeing, yes you need to swab post cleaning and rinse, prior to sanitizing.  The major swab suppliers will tell you until they are blue in the face sanitizer does not affect ATP swab reading, but honestly they are full of it.  We see the same issue, but we don't have a good way to stop and swab after cleaning and before sanitizing at the moment.  What we do when a part fails on our fillers, typically the capping system, it is sprayed with a solution of chlorine.  Not sure why chlorine works, but it does work to lower the RLU.

 

If this is a recent change for you I would look at who is doing the cleaning.  Are they newer operators?  Or, what else may have changed?  Possibly the chemicals or water supply.  Any production changes, such as running equipment longer than previously?  Sanitation changes?

 

Yup aware of ATP limits set for each facility different. But I am thinking a max of 9 is too low and strict. I've been with the company for about a year and recently promoted to a higher level and I need to look into this. 

 

they are having to spray sanitizer 5 times for an ATP swab to read 9 RLU and below and it is RIDICULOUS. 


Everything in food is science. The only subjective part is when you eat it. - Alton Brown.


#9 Scampi

Scampi

    Fellow

  • IFSQN Fellow
  • 3,644 posts
  • 981 thanks
602
Excellent

  • Canada
    Canada
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 12 July 2021 - 06:55 PM

Run your baseline for a couple of weeks preforming ATP post clean------you'll have a better idea of what the green/yellow/red values should be ---you really should get ~200 data points so you can get a real view into how clean your equipment can get, and what is a good value depending on what piece/area you are swabbing


Please stop referring to me as Sir/sirs


Thanked by 1 Member:

#10 Charles.C

Charles.C

    Grade - FIFSQN

  • IFSQN Moderator
  • 18,608 posts
  • 5210 thanks
1,186
Excellent

  • Earth
    Earth
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:SF
    TV
    Movies

Posted 12 July 2021 - 06:59 PM

Yup aware of ATP limits set for each facility different. But I am thinking a max of 9 is too low and strict. I've been with the company for about a year and recently promoted to a higher level and I need to look into this. 

 

they are having to spray sanitizer 5 times for an ATP swab to read 9 RLU and below and it is RIDICULOUS. 

 

It's all about baselines.

 

you could always add some micro. (after sanitizer which one might argue is the real situation)


Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


Thanked by 1 Member:

#11 johnmcip

johnmcip

    Grade - MIFSQN

  • IFSQN Member
  • 66 posts
  • 10 thanks
15
Good

  • United States
    United States

Posted 12 July 2021 - 07:02 PM

Above is correct. ATP will pickup sanitizer. I maxed out my luminometer by swabbing after spraying IPA. Almost had a heart attack until I realized what was going on.



Thanked by 1 Member:

#12 The Food Scientist

The Food Scientist

    Grade - FIFSQN

  • IFSQN Fellow
  • 1,025 posts
  • 261 thanks
198
Excellent

  • United States
    United States
  • Gender:Female
  • Interests:Food Science, Nature, SQF, Learning, Trying out new foods, Sarcasm.

Posted 12 July 2021 - 07:07 PM

From asking questions around a previous manager told me they validated their swabs from a PREVIOUS swab supplier (12 years AGO) that sanitizer doesnt affect ATP. I was like WHAT ABOUT THIS CURRENT ONE? 

 

So I called our current swab supplier and they said YES, sanitizer affects ATP and you shouldn't be swabbing after sanitizer.

 

OH LORD..................


Everything in food is science. The only subjective part is when you eat it. - Alton Brown.


#13 The Food Scientist

The Food Scientist

    Grade - FIFSQN

  • IFSQN Fellow
  • 1,025 posts
  • 261 thanks
198
Excellent

  • United States
    United States
  • Gender:Female
  • Interests:Food Science, Nature, SQF, Learning, Trying out new foods, Sarcasm.

Posted 12 July 2021 - 07:08 PM

Above is correct. ATP will pickup sanitizer. I maxed out my luminometer by swabbing after spraying IPA. Almost had a heart attack until I realized what was going on.

 

I am currently in heart attack state LOL


Everything in food is science. The only subjective part is when you eat it. - Alton Brown.


#14 Charles.C

Charles.C

    Grade - FIFSQN

  • IFSQN Moderator
  • 18,608 posts
  • 5210 thanks
1,186
Excellent

  • Earth
    Earth
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:SF
    TV
    Movies

Posted 13 July 2021 - 04:21 AM

Above is correct. ATP will pickup sanitizer. I maxed out my luminometer by swabbing after spraying IPA. Almost had a heart attack until I realized what was going on.

 

I would have thought rinsing after IPA (et al) would resolve the operational dilemma. Then again, I have always relied on micro. for a Low Risk haccp process.


Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users