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The Food Scientist

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Posted 03 September 2021 - 06:57 PM

Hello everyone!

 

I have a question, for those who work in beverages (juice) that produce both kosher and non-kosher products:

 

How does your kosherization occur?

 

How does it make sense to ONLY kosherize the pasteurizer while ignoring the rest of the downstream line? (bottle filling machines)

 

? Or am I missing something? Or do you guys perform Kosherization on the entire line?


Everything in food is science. The only subjective part is when you eat it. - Alton Brown.


olenazh

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Posted 03 September 2021 - 07:15 PM

Nice term, kosherization, never heard of it. Most of our products are Kosher, and Rabbi is coming to our place quite often. But all he does is making sure kosher ingredients are bearing Kosher logo. Just out of curiosity - did anybody observe a process of kosherization? 



The Food Scientist

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Posted 03 September 2021 - 07:18 PM

LOL I know, its not a word in the English dictionary but apparently they use in the Kosher industry?

 

Well its really basically "STERLIZATION" . heating up equipment to ensure sterility. 


Everything in food is science. The only subjective part is when you eat it. - Alton Brown.


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Posted 03 September 2021 - 07:18 PM

Nice term, kosherization, never heard of it. Most of our products are Kosher, and Rabbi is coming to our place quite often. But all he does is making sure kosher ingredients are bearing Kosher logo. Just out of curiosity - did anybody observe a process of kosherization? 

 

What products do you make?


Everything in food is science. The only subjective part is when you eat it. - Alton Brown.


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Posted 03 September 2021 - 07:19 PM

this may help

 

depends on which org certifies your product as kosher-----some are much stricter than others

 

https://oukosher.org...ed-application/


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olenazh

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Posted 03 September 2021 - 07:20 PM

What products do you make?

Dairy/Non-dairy fermented yogurts, kefirs, cream cheese, sour cream



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Posted 03 September 2021 - 07:29 PM

So you guys DO have a pasteurizer????? I assume.


Everything in food is science. The only subjective part is when you eat it. - Alton Brown.


olenazh

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Posted 03 September 2021 - 07:36 PM

So you guys DO have a pasteurizer????? I assume.

Of course. So I presume, kosherization is just pasteurization? What if one of ingredients is not kosher? Does it become automatically kosher after pasteurization? Honestly, all this kosherization/halalization stuff has always seemed to me kind of fiction - but of course that's my personal opinion, no offence:)



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Posted 03 September 2021 - 07:54 PM

SO..... it looks like I found the answer:

 

https://oukosher.org...e-pasteurizers/


Everything in food is science. The only subjective part is when you eat it. - Alton Brown.


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Posted 03 September 2021 - 07:54 PM

Of course. So I presume, kosherization is just pasteurization? What if one of ingredients is not kosher? Does it become automatically kosher after pasteurization? Honestly, all this kosherization/halalization stuff has always seemed to me kind of fiction - but of course that's my personal opinion, no offence:)

 

Kosherization is a higher temperature than Pasteurization, which in term is sterlization. Basically heating hot water over 200F for a certain amount of time


Everything in food is science. The only subjective part is when you eat it. - Alton Brown.


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Charles.C

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Posted 04 September 2021 - 05:16 AM

Kosherization is a higher temperature than Pasteurization, which in term is sterlization. Basically heating hot water over 200F for a certain amount of time

 

Hi TFS,

 

Interestingly quasi-interpretation of "Sterilization".

 

Replacing the "o" in yr Titular term by  "a" appears to be a more commonly encountered version, ie kasherization, kashering, eg -

 

https://www.bakingbu...r-certification.

 

I am unclear how traditional "Validation"  (or an appropriate equivalent) interacts with the various (Google) links offered in relation to this topic ? (I can however see that cooking processes are a deeply analysed subject).


Edited by Charles.C, 04 September 2021 - 05:43 AM.
edited

Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


pHruit

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Posted 04 September 2021 - 10:05 AM

Worth speaking to a few different certification bodies, IMEX.
I did Kosher products in the past, and had some challenges around liquid grape products - some Rabbis took the view that our standard CIP process was sufficient to address the cross-contamination risk and achieve kasherization, whereas others took the position that, as the contamination isn't physical, the cleaning process cannot be sufficient and simply told us they could do nothing with our current setup.

There seemed to be quite a range of different views and interpretations amongst the certification bodies, at least here in the UK. Was a pretty interesting process though - found a great Rabbi and learned quite a lot.



Charles.C

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Posted 05 September 2021 - 05:14 AM

Worth speaking to a few different certification bodies, IMEX.
I did Kosher products in the past, and had some challenges around liquid grape products - some Rabbis took the view that our standard CIP process was sufficient to address the cross-contamination risk and achieve kasherization, whereas others took the position that, as the contamination isn't physical, the cleaning process cannot be sufficient and simply told us they could do nothing with our current setup.

There seemed to be quite a range of different views and interpretations amongst the certification bodies, at least here in the UK. Was a pretty interesting process though - found a great Rabbi and learned quite a lot.

 

Hi pHruit,

 

^^^^(red) - Was it "scientifically" validated or ?

 

As I understood from link in Post 11, there is a heirarchy of knowledge involved plus, as I rapidly discovered, a "parallel" system of nomenclature.


Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


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Posted 05 September 2021 - 08:21 AM

Hi pHruit,

 

^^^^(red) - Was it "scientifically" validated or ?

 

Hi Charles,

No, absolutely not. During the Rabbi's first visit, he explained that the process would be nothing like a normal audit, and that much of what he was interested in couldn't be tested or measured - it came down to his experience/knowledge/interpretation. He also confirmed that this was why we'd found quite widely differing views amongst the different certification bodies with whom we'd spoken.

 

In the specific case of liquid grape products, his explanation was roughly:
Back in ye olden days, it was common practice to make an offering of wine / grape juice at the temple(s) of one's chosen deity/ies. But it would be wasteful to simply pour it out, so it wasn't at all unusual to pour the wine out of one receptacle as the offering, and then catch it in another for later consumption. This created a situation where, unless you knew the full history of your grape product, you had no way of knowing whether it had or had not been offered to the wrong god(s). The potential contaminant is therefore a spiritual(?) one, and that makes it "challenging" to test for removal of this by a cleaning process, or to analytically validate absence in a subsequent product...



Charles.C

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Posted 05 September 2021 - 11:58 AM

Hi Charles,

No, absolutely not. During the Rabbi's first visit, he explained that the process would be nothing like a normal audit, and that much of what he was interested in couldn't be tested or measured - it came down to his experience/knowledge/interpretation. He also confirmed that this was why we'd found quite widely differing views amongst the different certification bodies with whom we'd spoken.

 

In the specific case of liquid grape products, his explanation was roughly:
Back in ye olden days, it was common practice to make an offering of wine / grape juice at the temple(s) of one's chosen deity/ies. But it would be wasteful to simply pour it out, so it wasn't at all unusual to pour the wine out of one receptacle as the offering, and then catch it in another for later consumption. This created a situation where, unless you knew the full history of your grape product, you had no way of knowing whether it had or had not been offered to the wrong god(s). The potential contaminant is therefore a spiritual(?) one, and that makes it "challenging" to test for removal of this by a cleaning process, or to analytically validate absence in a subsequent product...

 

Hi phruit,

 

Interesting. Does the above mean that biological characteristics such as, for example, microbial life are not acknowledged to exist hence no possible relevance to the occurrence of a range of observed illnesses ?


Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


pHruit

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Posted 06 September 2021 - 08:07 AM

Hi phruit,

 

Interesting. Does the above mean that biological characteristics such as, for example, microbial life are not acknowledged to exist hence no possible relevance to the occurrence of a range of observed illnesses ?

 

Hi Charles,

It didn't really come up within the audits with that certification body, but we did briefly discuss BRC so it could well be the case that the Rabbi elected to focus on the elements not covered by that - he seemed reasonably familiar with the broad principles of GFSI-benchmarked standards.

(To be honest, I'd be quite happy if a good number of customers took the same approach, rather than going over exactly the same ground as BRC ;) )

 



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Posted 06 September 2021 - 04:50 PM

Hi pHruit,

 

I was intrigued by the "couldn't be tested or measured" quote. Seems significantly misaligned to the examples in my link of Post 11.

However above comments seem mostly in line with other posts/experiences  (except maybe Post 12).

 

Perhaps as is often the case,  it depends on the specifics, eg a preliminary, "intuitive", risk assessment.


Kind Regards,

 

Charles.C


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Posted 07 September 2021 - 04:21 PM

In theory this is a standardized process used by all certification agencies under Kosher law.  In practice....each rabbi is different and that's even for the same certifier.  I've ran into this so many times and there has been no consistency whatsoever.  None of it makes any practical sense either.

 

At the end of the day, whatever they call "kosherization" talk through it with your rabbi.  Give them the process limitations you have and how your process is setup.  This is a process of negotiation.  You might want to include someone from ops or maintenance who really knows the equipment AND someone who has authority to provide "pay" to the rabbi.  Pay can be....well, suited to the rabbi and agency.

 

Good luck, this is never fun and really a waste of time for everyone involved, but make sure you make the rabbi feel important and that they truly matter.  It will help in the negotiation.



olenazh

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Posted 07 September 2021 - 04:28 PM

Yes, Ryan M. is right, especially about "make sure you make the rabbi feel important and that they truly matter.  It will help in the negotiation



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Posted 07 September 2021 - 08:17 PM

Of course. So I presume, kosherization is just pasteurization? What if one of ingredients is not kosher? Does it become automatically kosher after pasteurization? Honestly, all this kosherization/halalization stuff has always seemed to me kind of fiction - but of course that's my personal opinion, no offence:)

 There are so many kosher rules that is is hard to figure out what needs to be accomplshed to acheive certification.  you really need to talk to a kosher certifying agency.  I was a t a kosher milk / juice plant.   We didn't have special kasherizing procedures.   As I recall we had a gelatin based thickener/emulsifier that was not kosher.   it didn't effect the rest of the certification.    

 

 

to add to the "Feel important" comments below....   I would add,  dont make it seem like you think its "fiction" .   If they feel like you don't care about their beliefs, there will be increased scrutiny.  



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Posted 08 September 2021 - 12:39 PM

Hi pHruit,

 

I was intrigued by the "couldn't be tested or measured" quote. Seems significantly misaligned to the examples in my link of Post 11.

However above comments seem mostly in line with other posts/experiences  (except maybe Post 12).

 

Perhaps as is often the case,  it depends on the specifics, eg a preliminary, "intuitive", risk assessment.

 

 

To be blunt re: religious certifications, there is zero concern with food safety, it has everything to do with believing that the end product is religiously "clean"

 

I worked a long time in a halal slaughterhouse-------there one and ONLY concern was how the birds were slaughtered---and cared zero about what happened to the carcasses after that

 

I'm not knocking anyone's beliefs, but that has been my professional experience (through 3 different Halal organizations) and there is NO interplay between scientific and religious bodies


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The Food Scientist

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Posted 08 September 2021 - 02:13 PM

To be blunt re: religious certifications, there is zero concern with food safety, it has everything to do with believing that the end product is religiously "clean"

 

I worked a long time in a halal slaughterhouse-------there one and ONLY concern was how the birds were slaughtered---and cared zero about what happened to the carcasses after that

 

I'm not knocking anyone's beliefs, but that has been my professional experience (through 3 different Halal organizations) and there is NO interplay between scientific and religious bodies

 

I agree with you. This is coming from someone who does consume Halal meat.


Everything in food is science. The only subjective part is when you eat it. - Alton Brown.


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Posted 09 September 2021 - 12:21 AM

I agree with you. This is coming from someone who does consume Halal meat.

 

I am pretty halal ignorant.  I do have a good understanding of kosher law .  Every once is a while I ponder that different kosher dietary rules and their purpose.  bats and pangolin are not kosher.   Is there a possibility that the word would be in a better place today if these were not harvested for food?   somewhat random thought.  



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Posted 09 September 2021 - 01:35 PM

I am pretty halal ignorant.  I do have a good understanding of kosher law .  Every once is a while I ponder that different kosher dietary rules and their purpose.  bats and pangolin are not kosher.   Is there a possibility that the word would be in a better place today if these were not harvested for food?   somewhat random thought.  

Wow, I never imagined that kosherization discussion would come to bats and pangolin harvesting! I believed these poor creatures were "harvested" in third world countries, where manufacturers didn't bother about complying to kosher standards.






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