14 replies to this topic

[AJL]

Experience with micro in Flour? Can you get different grades for raw dough with better micro?
Is there commercially available heat treated flour in EU?

[AJL]

Hope I was clear enough- we make raw cookie dough and we can see that our flour is not clean enough to give us the expected micro limits for the end product.

[Lorem Ipsum]

Hi. They are not EU but should have a sales office in Europe: https://www.cereform...nds-and-flours/

[Charles.C]

Hope I was clear enough- we make raw cookie dough and we can see that our flour is not clean enough to give us the expected micro limits for the end product.

Hi Annette.

 

The thread's title is "Flour".  Clear enough for a telepath.

 

It may depend on the meaning of "better" micro but heat treated flour is presumably one option if the flour is the source of an excessive microbial load and/or unwanted microbial species.

 

I would anticipate to be widely available in Europe. It's not exactly a cutting edge commodity afaik.

[AJL]

Thank you. New territory for me, I was blissfully aware of the 'dangers' of flour, until I started testing it as part of an investigation of our final product.

[Charles.C]

Thank you. New territory for me, I was blissfully aware of the 'dangers' of flour, until I started testing it as part of an investigation of our final product.

Ditto. I only became aware of it after a recent thread on RTE Cookie Dough which was also a new one to me.

[AJL]

Could you maybe share the thread with me? I read about Nestle having a recall somewhere, and it says they went over to heat treated flour. But my workplace keeps saying that heat treated flours have lost their functionality. Thanks for the replies, I LOVE this forum. So helpful ! So many talented people!

[Charles.C]

Could you maybe share the thread with me? I read about Nestle having a recall somewhere, and it says they went over to heat treated flour. But my workplace keeps saying that heat treated flours have lost their functionality. Thanks for the replies, I LOVE this forum. So helpful ! So many talented people!

Hi Annette,

 

There are actually 2 "linked" threads. The 2nd one Is given below however there is also a Forum sub- link in Post 11 which leads to an earlier, closely related,  micro-oriented  discussion -

 

https://www.ifsqn.co...ds/#entry181086

 

PS - The link at the end of the above-mentioned Post 11 may also be of direct interest.

[AJL]

Thank you, it's really helpful. We have been a bit back and forwards with our suppliers. It all comes down to the raw materials huh.
Appreciate you pointing me in the right direction. Still finding my way around this forum.
I have a lot if micro experience but it is mostly with egg and vegetables, products you EXPECT to contain high levels of pathogens.

[Scampi]

Ann-----as flour is derived from a raw agricultural commodity (wheat) it is "out in nature" just like fruit/veg............so things like micro (particularly derived from feces) etc WILL ALWAYS be present  (just think of the animals running through the fields, plus the birds flying overhead and the milling process ensure that those contaminants are nicely blended in the entire lot of flour

 

Are your R&D folks claiming that the gluten structure has been altered via the heat treatment?   https://ardentmills....plication-flour

 

Assuming your finished good is NOT RTE, but is RTC, you may need to adjust your micro expectations?????

[AJL]

Thanks Scampi, what I meant to say was that despite having a micro background, I was blissfully unaware of the high micro counts in flour, and the different types of pathogens that have caused recalls in ready to eat dough. I guess it's because it hasn't really been in the scope of my experience...and it wasn't me who did the risk evaluation or HACCP plan.

I became enlightened after a recent investigation we had recently, which was due to non conforming results (coliforms) which I had first assumed were due to hygiene...you can never assume right! Some back tracing revealed flour was the culprit. Now let me just go on to say- it was not just me that was blissfully unaware. It was overlooked by the person who developed the HACCP plan, and three of my senior managers, also blissfully unaware of the 'flora' of flour.

Our purchasing team are claiming lack of functionality- but having said that, we are ordering a trial of heat treated flour on my insistence- 'a trial can't hurt right?'

Yes it is a RTE product, which is why our final product micro standard is set so high. We have never before had an issue - which makes me think that the flour mill is working through some 'worse' batches.

Appreciate all the great threads, and assistance this forum provides. It really has been some great background reading.

All these great minds, collaborating to keep food safe over the world. What a great initiative.

[Scampi]

Having walked the earth living in a rural part of the world, you should also note that there will be many fluctuations in untreated flour, the amount of rain, or not, whether the farms are GAP certified, or not, what the moisture content was at harvest, how close to an open body of water (birds flocking around) whether or not the wheat needed to be dried prior to milling, how far the wheat had to travel, and on what kind of vehicle (rail, transport etc) will all affect the end result of the flour micro levels

 

I hope your trial with heat treated goes well, and since it's an RTE, how it performs in the oven will be of little consequence, and quite frankly, I can't imagine it's going to change the "mouth feel" at all to 99% of your consumers

 

https://inspection.c...icated lot code.

 

https://www.foodsafe...dough-outbreak/

 

https://www.consumer...ores nationwide.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/...it's being made.

 

https://www.foodsafe...ngers-of-flour/

[AJL]

Yes, I'm with you! Thanks again for great advice. Also fron a rural area, so have no idea how I overlooked flour
I guess all those years of licking the bowl/eating the cake mix with no side effects? 🤣🤣
Your are always welcome to comment on my posts
Y

[Charles.C]

Hi Annette,

 

Re - Your comment about coliform in post 11.

Although somewhat antique these days (and not a HACCP hazard), "coliforms"  is sometimes used as a hygiene indicator in post-cooking situations. And for some  NRTE where the raw materials have very low counts.

[AJL]

Yes, we use coliforms as a means of assessing sanitation (i e coliforms would indicate contamination).
I also see it as antique, as the presence of coliforms does not automatically mean there are pathogens, and vice versa.
We do have a speciation for coliforms, of which one product was over the spec. Which led to a whole new world for me, the World of flour