18 replies to this topic

[VEaganVPH729]

Hello All,

           I am having a hard time getting across the importance of completing pre-op each day before production begins. I have trained and re-trained and am looking for any ideas to help this issue.

[Setanta]

Are your employees not doing your Pre-ops?
Are they late? How are they not satisfying your requests?

[VEaganVPH729]

Are your employees not doing your Pre-ops?
Are they late? How are they not satisfying your requests?

Our establishment  is split up into multiple departments, and certain departments are just not doing their pre-ops. they claim they for got or thought it was already done buy someone else. These are people that have worked here for years, and our ask of them has never changed. people that we as recent as three months ago re-trained on how to correctly do pre-op and operational inspection.

[Scampi]

Take over with QC staff and delay everyone else's start time

 

If they are not getting it----than they shouldn't get the extra hours

 

Do you have a tech available before start up? if not, get one scheduled asap and either they do pre op OR they can prevent production from starting, ideally both

 

PS I personally believe that food safety tasks of importance (like pre op) should ALWAYS be done by QC staff as they are NOT invested in production targets

[VEaganVPH729]

Take over with QC staff and delay everyone else's start time

 

If they are not getting it----than they shouldn't get the extra hours

 

Do you have a tech available before start up? if not, get one scheduled asap and either they do pre op OR they can prevent production from starting, ideally both

 

PS I personally believe that food safety tasks of importance (like pre op) should ALWAYS be done by QC staff as they are NOT invested in production targets

I would really love for this idea to work but with 7 departments and seven pre-ops and two already over loaded Qa techs we dont really have a way to make this work. we are FSIS inspected with a start time of 7:52 am and an end time of 4:30pm anything after that is FSIS overtime that needs to be requested in advance and paid for.

[SoupsNStuff]

I would really love for this idea to work but with 7 departments and seven pre-ops and two already over loaded Qa techs we dont really have a way to make this work. we are FSIS inspected with a start time of 7:52 am and an end time of 4:30pm anything after that is FSIS overtime that needs to be requested in advance and paid for.

 

Time for surprise inspections then. With you and your two techs, show up unannounced for pre-op at 3 different departments per day. Anyone not doing their job after training gets written up and further disciplinary action. 

I fully understand the life of an overworked QA also having to do pre-ops but if they won't give you more designated QA, then their production people need to do the job correctly. 

[wbourg]

Well have you tried suspending people without pay? Pre-op is way too important to skip. How long is the pre-op? 

[VEaganVPH729]

Well have you tried suspending people without pay? Pre-op is way too important to skip. How long is the pre-op? 

Unfortunately my quality tea does not have the authority to enact any disciplinary actions, also the disciplinary actions here are very laxed. Trying to get our production manager to understand the importance of pre-op is half the battle

[VEaganVPH729]

Time for surprise inspections then. With you and your two techs, show up unannounced for pre-op at 3 different departments per day. Anyone not doing their job after training gets written up and further disciplinary action. 

I fully understand the life of an overworked QA also having to do pre-ops but if they won't give you more designated QA, then their production people need to do the job correctly. 

I have tried this route but lack of back-up from the production manager leads to no disciplinary actions for fear of hurting people feelings. The lax attitudes on disciplinary action that I do not have the power to enact creates more problems then it resolves.

[SoupsNStuff]

I have tried this route but lack of back-up from the production manager leads to no disciplinary actions for fear of hurting people feelings. The lax attitudes on disciplinary action that I do not have the power to enact creates more problems then it resolves.

 

How are your pre-ops on the FSIS end? Are the inspectors finding a lot or giving any NRs? Do you have a lot of delayed start ups?

Regulatory power can usually help push stubborn production management... 

 

 

Solution only if you are on very good terms with the inspector and this wouldn't backfire on you/QA, ask them to help you monitor the pre-op more closely. I definitely wouldn't do this with any inspector, but I've definitely worked with a few that I could trust to help me with these kinds of issues. 

[Scampi]

I've got to say---it sounds like it's time for you to move on

 

You cannot change company culture---and it sounds like they don't give a $*@# so do yourself (and your blood pressure) a favour and move along.  You've been offered really good options that you have said simply will not work for one reason or another--leaving is the only viable option left

[jfrey123]

Unfortunately, I'm petty, and my gut reaction is to send the QA techs and yourself to find which departments haven't completed pre-op each day and place all material they produce on hold until they provide corrective actions.  But I'm betting that a plant willing to disregard pre-op probably allows the hold program to be overridden or released by the production managers...  Maybe those FSIS inspectors need to be clued in that pre-op ain't happening...

 

Plants I work for generally require a QA sign off on the pre-op checklists before they can proceed with operations that day.  Failure to comply results in warnings and disciplinary actions.  But that means the departments have to cooperate.  

 

Short of just documenting the shortcomings and letting the managers squirm during your next GFSI or regulatory audit, it might be time to seek out a company that cares more about proper procedures.

[wbourg]

I've got to say---it sounds like it's time for you to move on

You cannot change company culture---and it sounds like they don't give a $*@# so do yourself (and your blood pressure) a favour and move along. You've been offered really good options that you have said simply will not work for one reason or another--leaving is the only viable option left

[wbourg]

It sucks to say it like this ,but there's only a few people going to jail in the event of a recall causong someone to lose their life. Are the employees going to jail? Probably not; their managers let them not do pre-ops. I agree with Scampi. Get out. If there's an incident. It's on you and other parts of leadership.

[Scotty_SQF]

Work with FSIS on this.  They have the authority and the power to put things on hold and issue NR's.  I've had some great and helpful inspectors in my past career in food.  There were times they went directly to the plant manager and laid it out for them what is going to happen if they don't listen to their QA department.  

 

I do have to say, while reading through your postings (till I got to Scampi's sage advice), I was thinking to myself, if I was QA Manager there, I'd be looking for a new opportunity.

[kfromNE]

Work with FSIS on this.  They have the authority and the power to put things on hold and issue NR's.  I've had some great and helpful inspectors in my past career in food.  There were times they went directly to the plant manager and laid it out for them what is going to happen if they don't listen to their QA department.  

 

I do have to say, while reading through your postings (till I got to Scampi's sage advice), I was thinking to myself, if I was QA Manager there, I'd be looking for a new opportunity.

I agree with Scotty. I have managers that don't always see the importance of the QC staff. However - they won't argue with the USDA. I'm lucky and my Plant Manager does get it. Sometimes our corporate doesn't get it (not pre-op, usually items needing fixed and won't provide the budget for it) so I know the Plant Manager has asked for a finding on an USDA audit or other audit so the problem gets fixed. 

 

2 QCs plus you total - 7 rooms in a USDA plant. I hope you work in a low-risk facility. Because that doesn't seem like enough staff.

[Brothbro]

It's surprising that FSIS hasn't shut down your operations to get pre-op done. I've worked with USDA inspectors in the past who would not hesitate to halt production if they saw pre-ops were not being completed.

 

But I'll echo what others have said, the lack of buy-in from management is unacceptable. If management can't understand that pre-op is a basic fundamental of plant operations, one that your absolutely can't do without, then it doesn't seem like a good team to work with. At this point the BEST CASE scenario for your plant heading down this pre-opless path is warning letters, bad publicity, and forced recalls by federal agencies. The worst case is customer illnesses or death, depending on the type of product you make. Either way, bad things are inevitably on the horizon for a company that operates this way.

[G M]

It's surprising that FSIS hasn't shut down your operations to get pre-op done. I've worked with USDA inspectors in the past who would not hesitate to halt production if they saw pre-ops were not being completed.

...

 

This surprises me too.  Our inspectors have always done their pre-op inspections after the quality team is done, and if the inspector finds something they won't hesitate to write an NR or place regulatory holds.  The inspectors also regularly look at our preoperational and operational sanitation inspection records -- if they see a lot of "no deficiencies" they'll drop in and watch the quality personnel to observe how thorough they're being and check anything they thought was missed in their own inspection.

[QAKat]

This surprises me too.  Our inspectors have always done their pre-op inspections after the quality team is done, and if the inspector finds something they won't hesitate to write an NR or place regulatory holds.  The inspectors also regularly look at our preoperational and operational sanitation inspection records -- if they see a lot of "no deficiencies" they'll drop in and watch the quality personnel to observe how thorough they're being and check anything they thought was missed in their own inspection.

I also worked with USDA and MOST inspectors where there for pre-op even if it was done at 3am. They did their own and then waited for me to finish mine to make sure I didn't miss anything that they saw. And sure thing they would go to their office and write up NRs for anything I didn't catch even if it was a tiny piece of something. One time they almost didn't let production run because there was a pallet in his way of doing the inspection and he said next time that happened he would tag the room. Which shows how important pre-op is. 

 

I'd say talk with the inspectors. If they won't listen to you they will have to listen to them.

Good luck!