6 replies to this topic

[stevenbernardino]

So I have two metal detectors, both from different vendors. Each vendor refuses to "calibrate" the other's metal detector, but they will agree to validate competitor's machine and provide a certificate. Technically, the metal detectors program & calibrate themselves, so I am trying to avoid paying two different vendors +$1,200 each to come in and just run some test pieces and give me a certificate. I'd rather just pay one of the companies that money and save a good chunk of change....

 

My biggest question is: Do I need a calibration certificate for both my metal detectors or does a validation certificate suffice for the SQF code?

[MDaleDDF]

I'm not sqf, I'm fssc, but I'd say yes, it's a requirement.  

[kingstudruler1]

Are the MDs CCPc / PCs?   

 

They would need  to be calibrated (11.2.3.1)

They would need to be validated (11.7.4.3)

 

SQF gives you a lot of freedom on how you accomplish these tasks.   There is no SQFI requirement that you have a certificate for either calibration or validation. 

It is nice to have the MFG go through the units as they can spot issues that just testing the pieces will not find.   

[Scampi]

$1200 x 2 seems like a small price to pay to know that your machines actually work properly no?

Generally speaking, you should follow the manufacturers recommendations, so if they say validate, then validate, but if they recommend calibration annually, then you should have them calibrated

 

It doesn't matter if the MD is a CCP or a PC   no where does the code make any such separation,   if that were the case, then I wouldn't need to send me thermometer out for calibration annually because it's not used for either of those

 

11.2.3 Calibration 11.2.3.1 The methods and responsibility for calibration and re-calibration of measuring, testing, and inspection equipment used for monitoring activities outlined in prerequisite programs, food safety plans, and other process controls, or to demonstrate compliance with customer specifications, shall be documented and implemented. Software used for such activities shall be validated as appropriate. 11.2.3.3 Calibration shall be performed according to regulatory requirements and/or to the equipment manufacturers’ recommended schedule. 11.2.3.4 Procedures shall be documented and implemented to address the resolution of potentially affected products when measuring,  testing, or inspection equipment is found to be out of calibration.      11.2.3.6 A directory of measuring, testing, and inspection equipment that require calibration and records of the calibration tests shall be maintained. 

[Esoto728]

Yes, calibration and validation are required. SQF,BRCGS,AIB are a few i have experienced require.

[GMO]

I suspect this is going to be various company's interpretation on what validation is and what calibration is.

 

I'd suggest most external companies actually do neither.  I'm not SQF trained but at least when we're talking HACCP, validation is the ability of the control measure to work.  It can be based on design, initial trials etc but it's not something which should need to happen every year.  Calibration is going to be a process where a person checks a piece of machinery to ensure it is delivering the right results with any appropriate adjustment if needed.  

What I suspect either company would actually do is to come in, check it's working and give you a certificate.  You do have to question the value but I know auditors expect it.  If anything I'd say it's more of an annual verification.  But meh, I think it would be a tough auditor to not accept this.  But to satisfy the nitpicking auditor who may turn up, perhaps get from each supplier "what's different".  I.e. ask them to share what they'd do in a calibration vs. a validation and see if it's worth it?  

OR, look for a third supplier.  You may find that an independent contractor could and would calibrate both.  

[Planck]

I suspect this is going to be various company's interpretation on what validation is and what calibration is.

 

I'd suggest most external companies actually do neither.  I'm not SQF trained but at least when we're talking HACCP, validation is the ability of the control measure to work.  It can be based on design, initial trials etc but it's not something which should need to happen every year.  Calibration is going to be a process where a person checks a piece of machinery to ensure it is delivering the right results with any appropriate adjustment if needed.  

What I suspect either company would actually do is to come in, check it's working and give you a certificate.  You do have to question the value but I know auditors expect it.  If anything I'd say it's more of an annual verification.  But meh, I think it would be a tough auditor to not accept this.  But to satisfy the nitpicking auditor who may turn up, perhaps get from each supplier "what's different".  I.e. ask them to share what they'd do in a calibration vs. a validation and see if it's worth it?  

OR, look for a third supplier.  You may find that an independent contractor could and would calibrate both.  

We are a MD service provider, and frankly, I do partially agree with you.

1, Validation is the ability of the control measure to work.  It can be based on design, initial trials etc but it's not something which should need to happen every year.
Calibration is going to be a process where a person checks a piece of machinery to ensure it is delivering the right results with any appropriate adjustment if needed.

I totally agree with your point of view.

 

2, But I also understand at the same time that your auditing organisation requires you to provide reports on an annual basis.

 

I think this is due to management and quality control. Good production management in a factory will also have a direct impact on the effective use of metal detectors.

The metal detector is actually so complex that I can almost give training to a customer 3 days in a row and go over completely different things.

 

 

If you wish, we can give you an on-site service and then we will record detailed data, including equipment recommendations and answers to any questions you may have.
 

Then we'll show you how to do Validation.

 

After one year, or whatever date is necessary, you provide us with the data we need at our request, and we can provide a new report after we review it.

 

And the first on-site service is to complete Calibration and allows us to get a handle on what's going on in the field, including your products, quality control standards, the layout of the equipment in the field, and anything that might be interfering with the equipment.

 

Here I can post a few screenshots that I'm sure you haven't seen before:

 金探调查 01.jpg   480.48KB   0 downloads  金探调查 02.jpg   630.16KB   0 downloads

 快照25.jpg   244.56KB   0 downloads  快照27.jpg   282.35KB   0 downloads

 快照26.jpg   234.14KB   0 downloads  快照28.jpg   212.25KB   0 downloads

 

Performing at least one on-site service is an absolute must, otherwise we can't get an accurate overview of the equipment's operating conditions.

If one of your equipment is LOMA that's the best.

 

We are still here and happy to answer any metal detector specific questions.

 

Thanks.