33 replies to this topic

[TimG]

Have any of you guys been raided? Has anyone updated their regulatory inspection document or made a completely different PnP to address the possibility of an ICE raid?

When I worked on the port the Port Authority as well as ATF (I think they were ATF...) could show up like the Spanish Inquisition and didn't sign visitor stuff, didn't put on hairnets, basically told us they didn't care about our food safety rules, nor were we allowed to accompany them through their inspections of our facility. I put all of this in my regulatory inspection document just so it was covered (inspect product after they leave and all that jazz).

Anyway, has anyone had any 'visits'?

[G M]

Just a couple days where half the team members didn't show up because there was a rumor one was going to happen.

[GMO]

Wow.  So different in the UK.  If you don't have the proof someone has the ability to work here the penalties for employers are huge.  As the employer you can be imprisoned for up to 5 years and have an unlimited fine.  It focuses the mind... When you apply for a job even as an obviously British person you have to bring in ID (normally a passport) which is then checked against government records through an automated system using the facial recognition software.

 

Not saying it couldn't be circumvented.  It will happen I'm sure but it's tough.  It's normally the likes of nail salons or restaurants who get found out here.  Not factories, warehouses etc.  It's far more bother than it's worth.

[TimG]

Wow.  So different in the UK.  If you don't have the proof someone has the ability to work here the penalties for employers are huge.  As the employer you can be imprisoned for up to 5 years and have an unlimited fine.  It focuses the mind... When you apply for a job even as an obviously British person you have to bring in ID (normally a passport) which is then checked against government records through an automated system using the facial recognition software.

 

Not saying it couldn't be circumvented.  It will happen I'm sure but it's tough.  It's normally the likes of nail salons or restaurants who get found out here.  Not factories, warehouses etc.  It's far more bother than it's worth.

 

Oh, we have proof. All of our employees can legally work in the U.S. That doesn't mean an extremely disruptive raid which could affect both food safety and quality isn't possible...

Thankfully for me, I'm in a very small place now in the middle of nowhere, so the chances my facility will be hit are pretty low. I don't think I'm changing a thing for my PnP. 

 

Edit: I am seriously considering using ICE raid as a mock food defense challenge though, just to say 'we've considered the fallout and this is what we would do in that situation' in case an auditor asks.

Edited by TimG, 29 May 2025 - 04:28 PM.

[G M]

Wow.  So different in the UK.  If you don't have the proof someone has the ability to work here the penalties for employers are huge.  ... checked against government records through an automated system using the facial recognition software.

...

 

The legal standard for hiring is through the federal eVerify system, but that system does a pretty terrible job of detecting fraud.

[SQFconsultant]

Years ago I worked in a rather large restaurant in New Jersey and one day there was a raid, about 12 agents poured in all of the entryways - never saw that many people run out the back door at one time, they were jumping over the fence out back - I remember one guy by the name of Hector who was from Columbia yelling to me - I will be back in a couple of month, going home for a vacation!

 

We will be avoiding hiring any non-Americans for our new facility - having just witnessed a large ICE, FBI, DHS and Coast Guard illegal alien operation on the island over the past couple of days here - years past the employer would get nothing but a small fine, however now they can arrest the employer on harboring illegals, which can be a felony - not worth it.

 

The good thing is that those folks here in the states illegally must return to their home countries in order to get the benefits of the soon to be released GESARA funds - they will not receive those here.

[Tony-C]

The only one I've been party to was quite well co-ordinated by the authorities with site management.

 

We arranged a hygiene briefing by my QA Manager for all suspected illegals. The briefing room was then raided as he got the briefing started.

He wasn't in on the raid so got the shock of his life     not sure if he has forgiven us yet! Probably has as he was a good sport and we had a good laugh about it afterwards.

[GMO]

The legal standard for hiring is through the federal eVerify system, but that system does a pretty terrible job of detecting fraud.

 

Daft question but why?  I believe the system used in the UK is the same as used by border control.  The main weakness is someone who looks similar enough to a picture of someone else not being picked up by site employees and as I said, smaller employers.  I suspect longer term facial recognition will come in though to make this stronger still.  

 

That sounds like it needs some investment in the system rather than more ICE raids.

[GMO]

I worry if the reaction is as suggested earlier up in this thread that people not born in the US will stop being employed.  So state sanctioned racism then?  That would be illegal discrimination in the UK.

 

Strange times.

[MDaleDDF]

I worry if the reaction is as suggested earlier up in this thread that people not born in the US will stop being employed.  

I don't think that's the case.   There are plenty of ways to get work visas for seasonal employees, etc.   If you're not in the country legally, you can't be employed here.    Just like Europe, or anywhere else.    Heck, cross the border illegally in Thailand and see how they handle it, lol.   I lived in CH a few years, and when my visa was about up, they reached out and said if I hadn't left the country by the time it expired, they'd come escort me out.    No different here.....

[Seathalos]

I worry if the reaction is as suggested earlier up in this thread that people not born in the US will stop being employed.  So state sanctioned racism then?  That would be illegal discrimination in the UK.

 

Strange times.

 

When asking these questions we should ask "what time period are they speaking about when saying 'Make America Great Again'" and then ask whom was is great for. 

 

But for all of the US packing facilities, with or without undocumented immigrants, we should plan out contingencies for when ICE randomly comes through and tries to bag up employees. Not only does it pose a risk for potential contamination, but also is a Social Responsibility concern 

[Seathalos]

I don't think that's the case.   There are plenty of ways to get work visas for seasonal employees, etc.   If you're not in the country legally, you can't be employed here.    Just like Europe, or anywhere else.    Heck, cross the border illegally in Thailand and see how they handle it, lol.   I lived in CH a few years, and when my visa was about up, they reached out and said if I hadn't left the country by the time it expired, they'd come escort me out.    No different here.....

 

A little different here as the backbone for our agriculture power is based in undocumented migrants doing the work that documented citizens do not want to do. Just because it is illegal for a business owner to hire undocumented cheap labor doesn't mean they wont do it

[G M]

A little different here as the backbone for our agriculture power is based in undocumented migrants doing the work that documented citizens do not want to do. Just because it is illegal for a business owner to hire undocumented cheap labor doesn't mean they wont do it

 

Most employers are following the law, but the federal system to verify employment eligibility cant effectively detect identity fraud -- making it kind of pointless.

 

 

https://www.meatingp.../Details/119526

 

[U.S. Rep. Don Bacon (R-Neb.)] said his team learned that ICE served a civil warrant to one facility only (Glenn Valley Foods); the warrant related to stolen identities; and ICE verified that Glenn Valley Foods “complied with E-Verify 100% and is a victim in this as well.”

[Seathalos]

Most employers are following the law, but the federal system to verify employment eligibility cant effectively detect identity fraud -- making it kind of pointless.

 

Eh, as someone that worked in highly regulated industries like Rec Cannabis it isn't hard to spot fake IDs and verify if they are the same person. Additionally if it they are trying to portray themselves as US Citizens, they will also need work authorization paperwork that would easily be a red flag, which is verified through government databases. We have had to turn away multiple applicants because they didn't have this paperwork or were "in process" of getting them. 

 

(If undocumented immigration was really an issue it would be fixed at the source, our lack luster documentation system. We should all keep in mind that crossing borders undocumented isn't classified as a Criminal Offense but a Civil Violation. And if any of our workers are unfortunately undocumented wouldn't the moral thing to do is to try to protect them and help with getting them the documentation they need, as are we really going discount the labor they provided just because they are missing some papers? Are papers more important that the relationships we have made? Personally I think not.)

[MDaleDDF]

A little different here as the backbone for our agriculture power is based in undocumented migrants doing the work that documented citizens do not want to do. Just because it is illegal for a business owner to hire undocumented cheap labor doesn't mean they wont do it

I would disagree that it's the 'backbone', but it certainly happens.     It's actually a little difficult to get into this conversation too deeply without delving into politics, which I have no will to discuss with anyone, lol.    But companies that hire illegal immigrants are opening themselves up.   As stated earlier, there are visas and work permits that workers can get.    If you want to enter a country, ANY country, you should do it legally, period.   If you don't you're going to be subject to removal, and in some countries, you'll incur high fines and possibly a long jail term.   

As far as ICE, I have zero idea how they develop targets.   But we have zero illegal immigrants working here, and I don't feel like I need a plan to deal with ICE, as I highly doubt they're coming here.     I don't see how anyone else would be worried about it at all if they were in compliance with federal immigration law.

I lived in Mexico for years, speak fluent Spanish, and still have many close friends there I visit as often as I can, usually at least once per year.   I have as soft a heart as anyone, but the law is the law.   If you're here illegally, you're breaking the law, and are subject to arrest and deportation.   This is not exclusive to the US at all.....

[MDaleDDF]

We should all keep in mind that crossing borders undocumented isn't classified as a Criminal Offense but a Civil Violation. 

"Crossing the border illegally is a federal crime under Title 8 of the U.S. Code, specifically section 1325, which prohibits improper entry by aliens"

 

"1325 and 1326 are misdemeanor and felony violations, respectively, in the criminal context"

 

That's simply not true.

Edited by MDaleDDF, 11 June 2025 - 05:10 PM.

[Seathalos]

As far as ICE, I have zero idea how they develop targets.   But we have zero illegal immigrants working here, and I don't feel like I need a plan to deal with ICE, as I highly doubt they're coming here.     I don't see how anyone else would be worried about it at all if they were in compliance with federal immigration law.

 

Unfortunately, ICE has also been targeting people that are actually going through the system (recently they were trying to abduct a woman at a courthouse right after her lawyer went to the bathroom) and are doing drag net operations meaning even if you are complaint with the law ICE can show up if their is ANY suspicion of undocumented individuals in the facility. We are in the job of prevention, Just because there is very little likelihood of a Listera Mono. outbreak from an apple packing facility we still need to take it into consideration. (most of the "illegal", undocumented, immigrants in the us aren't people that sneaked over the border but visa overstayers that just have to renew said paperwork)

 

It is never a bad thing to have a plan of action, as then if the unexpected does happen you aren't caught with your pants around your ankles. 

[Seathalos]

"Crossing the border illegally is a federal crime under Title 8 of the U.S. Code, specifically section 1325, which prohibits improper entry by aliens"

 

"1325 and 1326 are misdemeanor and felony violations, respectively, in the criminal context"

 

That's simply not true.

1326 was rulled unconstitutional by a judge in the District of Nevada 

[MDaleDDF]

Federal officers abduct a woman?    I don't think that would fit the definition of abduction, but ok.      And unfortunately a visa overstay is no different, you're in the country illegally as soon as your visa expires, and subject to detention and removal.   I would also so it's impossible to know how many have done it on purpose, but I'd wager it's a pretty large percentage.   

 

As far as the plan of action, I'll risk it here.   

 

But if others feel they need their facility to be prepared for such things, it's definitely a good idea for them to do so....

 

"1326 was ruled unconstitutional by a judge in the District of Nevada", and that's great, but it's still the law.   One judge in Nevada cannot overturn that.   A quick Google will tell you:   "A judge in the district of Nevada did rule section 1326 unconstitutional, this decision was overturned by the ninth circuit court of appeals".

 

This has turned into chess with a pigeon, so I digress....

Edited by MDaleDDF, 11 June 2025 - 05:26 PM.

[Seathalos]

Federal officers abduct a woman?    I don't think that would fit the definition of abduction, but ok.      And unfortunately a visa overstay is no different, you're in the country illegally as soon as your visa expires, and subject to detention and removal.   I would also so it's impossible to know how many have done it on purpose, but I'd wager it's a pretty large percentage.  

 

No I am using the word correctly as they had to legal precedent that allows them to apprehend an individual that is currently at a courthouse, going through the legal process, because her lawyer had to use the restroom. Just because they are federal officers does not mean they have the authority to apprehend (abduct) people without due process. Additionally, if you are pointing at 1325, 1326 specifically a visa overstayer is LEGALLY distinct as those codes cover (1325) people caught coming over the border (misdemeanor) and (1326) those reentering the country post removal (felony). (my point about it being ruled as unconstitutional is that looking at things simply as legal vs illegal is a fault as the law isn't always a just system. Just because something is lawful doesn't mean it is moral and vice versa)

[kconf]

How can ICE raid be used as a mock food defense? Do you mean defending the company against ICE raiders? 

[Seathalos]

How can ICE raid be used as a mock food defense? Do you mean defending the company against ICE raiders? 

 

I highly suspect that the entity of ICE has a very little care for whatever rules or regulations we need to follow so their officers entering the facility would be a food defense risk as there is a large potential of adulteration

[kconf]

That's what I thought too as the employees (legal or not) have already been working there. Their status is not related to food safety. 

[GMO]

I get the law is the law comments but as I understand it some of the "waste" found by DOGE was actually illegal immigrants using old data to be able to earn and pay tax.  Bizarre really that the system isn't just improved to stop that.  It would seem to be much simpler, cheaper and more effective / less emotive than dragging people away and deporting them.  As I wrote further up, the UK system is very similar to the border control checks.  

 

It does to my mind risk anyone who perhaps wasn't born in the US even if their paperwork looks valid not being employed.  It looks from the outside like that's a potential path that it's going down.  I was right though, there are already companies now doing facial recognition vs. identity documents now in the UK, this means it's going to be as good as the guy stamping your passport on arrival or the e-gates.

 

Checking right to work in the UK: changes and key facts - Zellis

 

That seems like what you guys need if you want to stop this issue.  Rather than lots of guys with ICE jackets and weapons.  But I'm not there, so what do I know?  

[TimG]

How can ICE raid be used as a mock food defense? Do you mean defending the company against ICE raiders? 

I'm still in brainstorming phase. I was leaning towards 'intentional adulteration' of product if searches are conducted with disregard to food safety. I had 2 different roles where we had a food facility that was on the port. After 'visits' I would come into the warehouse and find supersacks of sugar cut open on the top (they were designed to be fairly easy to untie, but the folks in the black SUV's care nothing for that) and evidence that a device was poked into the supersack and.. some type of inspection was made? Maybe to confirm we didn't have bags of coke mixed in there? Piles of sugar on the floor around the open supersacks. Stuff like that.

 

I can't really see that being an issue now in honey. Well unless they pop a tote and dip their hands in..

It fits much better into my annual 'crisis management' mock scenario, so that's probably what I'm going to conduct it under. A visit like that would negatively impact the line and production for an extended period of time. That much I'm pretty sure of.