10 replies to this topic

[AZuzack]

https://www.foodsafe...ive-credibility

 

I read the article today.  I remember the PCA incident.  It strongly impacted how and what I sign my name to, as well as my views on releasing product after deviations.  When I saw the "or didn't" at the end of the title, there was that sinking feeling.  I don't think that enough has changed.  

 

Case in Point - Boar's Head Plant in Jarratt, VA caused 10 deaths.  It was closed "indefinitely."  Now it is going to re-open.  Unless it was bulldozed and rebuilt in the last year, the types of problems they had don't just go away.  There are Civil Cases pending but no criminal charges.  

https://www.food-saf...main-insanitary

 

Case 2: Listeria in Blue Bell Ice cream caused 3 deaths.  Also no criminal charges.  

https://archive.cdc....3-15/index.html

 

What is the point in GFSI of Sr. Management Commitment if Senior Management is NOT held accountable for the failures that result in death?  

 

 

[MDaleDDF]

In the PCA case there were emails identifying upper management as directly responsible for the decision to ship product known to have failed path testing.

In the other cases, there were not.     

[AZuzack]

In the U.S. a email showing knowledge isn't needed.  The Responsible Corporate Officer (RCO) Doctrine, also known as the "Park Doctrine," holds company officials criminally liable for food safety violations under the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (FDCA). This doctrine is a tool used by federal prosecutors to hold executives accountable for corporate misconduct. 

 

For Boar's Head, there should have been meeting notes with signatures.  Anyone with a GFSI cert would have monthly meetings to discuss relevant food safety topics.  Essentially you're saying that Big companies are immune to prosecution and PCA was easy because the top of their company was likely in-plant.  

[MDaleDDF]

That's not at all what I'm saying.   Not even a little bit.   The law requires proof of willful disregard.  Everyone is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, and it can be very difficult to prove something like this without a smoking gun, which there was in the PCA case, and there is not (or has not been made public) in the other cases.   That's all I am saying.

Essentially what you're saying is every time there's an event an executive should be locked up.   I disagree with that as an automatic premise.   Every case is different.   A blanket 'lock someone up' statement seems over the top to me, and difficult to prove.

Edited by MDaleDDF, Today, 01:56 PM.

[MDaleDDF]

A quick google:

 

"Prosecuting under the Responsible Corporate Officer (RCO) Doctrine is difficult because

it imposes strict liability, holding officers accountable for violations even without personal involvement or knowledge, which challenges traditional notions of criminal responsibility. Prosecutors use the doctrine, primarily for public-welfare-related offenses like in the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) context, when a violation occurs within the company and the officer had the authority to prevent or correct it but failed to do so. However, this strict standard can lead to legal challenges, concerns about fairness, and a potential reluctance to apply the doctrine broadly due to its departure from traditional criminal law principles"

 

Using this as a prosecutor would present multiple challenges, which is why I would imagine prosecutors are not interested in pursuing it.

[G M]

The "do something" impulse might make the mob happy in the short term, but it isn't sustainable justice. 

 

Maybe next year the executives aren't enough and they want to sacrifice everyone in QA for their perceived failure.  I think we'd all prefer there needed to be a clear set of evidence.

[MDaleDDF]

QA is definitely at risk for this as well.   Whenever we do something in here, the owner and I take it very serious on a personal level, because we're well aware if something goes terribly wrong, WE are the ones going to jail for it.   Plus I wouldn't be able to live with myself...

 

Food safety is job 1.   Period.

I'm the same way when I take people out on my boat.   Dad always taught me taking people out and having a good time on the boat is not my job as the captain.   

My job, every time I leave the dock, is to get everyone back to the dock alive.   I still think of it like that to this day, every time I leave the dock with folks in my boat.  Having a good time is secondary...

[AZuzack]

I don't want to lock people up but I want corporate leaders to be held accountable when their product kills someone.  Maybe that's community service; maybe that's a small amount of time served (even if it is only 1 week) so that there's at least some inconvenience on their life for the extreme inconvenience their company's negligence inflicted on the victim's families. 

 

I guess I'm just angry because I was naïve in thinking the PCA trial and outcome was going to positively change food safety.  Current reflection on the subject shows that it hasn't.   

[kfromNE]

Look up Kerry and cereal. Their QA Director was fined after instructing his employees to ignore results. 

It's hard to prove sometimes. Also - not everything makes news. So repercussions could have happened but you would never know about them. 

 

Speaking from experience - having someone get sick b/c of the product produced at your facility - the worst feeling in the world. It doesn't go away after a day. It stays with you for a very long time. Even when it wasn't intentional and you did everything you could to fix it. Still my biggest fear. 

[MDaleDDF]

You openly lament "there's no criminal charges", and say you don't want to lock people up.   You speak of justice, but want people held accountable with no proof of wrongdoing.   You suggest that if found liable for killing someone, community service or a week of incarceration is a viable punishment.    I think you're kind of all over the place here, just imho.

 

As far as the impact of the PCA, I think it's been huge and that it shook the foundations of food safety and food manufacturing when it happened.   I don't think we're ever going to get to a point where food carries no risk, and unfortunately, that people won't die due to food illness world wide, or even just in the States.   Scampi and I had this discussion long ago on another topic.  I certainly would WANT that as a food professional, but I just don't see it...not anytime soon anyway.   How many people currently die in the US due to food illness annually?   Anywhere from 3-5000.   How many are we talking about due to PCA?   Boar's Head?   I don't want to go full actuary, but those don't even scratch the surface.    But that doesn't mean the PCA incident had no impact on day to day operations at facilities and executive board rooms world wide...  

 

What do you mean by "current reflections that show it hasn't"?

Any data I've looked up shows since the 2008 outbreaks are down, but those that happen are more severe, which is troubling...

Edited by MDaleDDF, 19 minutes ago.

[GMO]

Think things are bad in the US?  The penalties in the UK are laughable.  Apart from it not being funny because there have been some awful deaths, especially with allergy in food service but also micro related, especially in hospital settings.

 

The problem is there is the tendency in the US to look for the smoking gun that someone knew that they were shipping material which could kill / hurt a consumer.  Not that there was a high rate of failure, but as I understand it, the PCA case, they knew the results failed, but they knowingly shipped THAT batch with failed results.

 

Now similar happened in the UK with Cadbury's and Salmonella in the early 00's.  Nobody died but nobody was prosecuted either.

 

So in the US you need a smoking gun. In the UK, even if you have the smoking gun, you might get away with it.  To be fair legislation has tightened since but finding a situation where someone was actually sent to prison is EXTREMELY rare.

 

Is prison the solution?  It focusses brains here with Health and Safety legislation that's for sure.  As do fines for simple non compliance.  And they're A LOT tougher than food safety penalties with personal liability for directors etc.  There has to be some consequences for both the wilfully actively and criminally, you WILL kill someone dangerous (PCA) and the wilfully extremely negligent (probably Boar's Head and others).  BOTH need to feel the pressure of SOMETHING to cause change, or both will happen again.